KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

[Infinitron]

http://ultimacodex.com/2014/08/underworld-ascension-design-details-coming-soon/

Underworld Ascension: Design Details Coming Soon?

A couple days ago, an OtherSide Entertainment employee by the name of Steve — all of the OtherSide staff seem to go by their first names on their forums — let slip that OtherSide is planning to release design details for Underworld Ascension in the very near future:

We haven’t posted anything new for folks to discuss in a while but we have been busy working on writing design docs and writing some code for a very early version of a world building editor. Sometime later this month (hopefully in a couple of weeks) we should be posting some concept art and a high level (think mile high level) design doc for folks to comment on. That should provide something for everyone to discuss. Additionally we have been discussing putting up an about us page on the website sooner rather than later. So stay tuned for some more solid info about us and the game.

Take it with a few grains of salt, I suppose…but if they do manage to deliver some preliminary game details this month, who can say that wouldn’t be awesome?

 

[Sonus]

I hope it's all true and exactly what it appears. B-)

 

[Jaesun]

Please don't be dumbed down console shit.

 

[Abelian]

So did anyone figure out why they wrote "Jamon is awesome" in runic characters on the logo? Does Paul Neurath particularly like ham?

 

[Jaesun]

I didn't think to actually translate those runes.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

It was asked on the forums there but there was no response. I've spent some time on the forums there but it there is a high level of shit coming from cyberP whoeverthefuck that is.

 

[Cazzeris]

CyberP

 

[Azrael the cat]

Please don't be dumbed down console shit.

I'm hoping we've finally reached the point with consolitis that we have with AIDS. I.e. haven't cured it, and we could really do with a vaccine, but for rich fuckers who can afford a good gaming computer, it's no longer fatal.

The better parts of Deus Ex: HR showed that, whilst they still don't have maps as large as the bigger Deus Ex ones (but probably could with DE1 graphics), they're large enough to make games of the 'interactive world' genre. The DE games (both original and HR) show you can have a huge amount of versitility and interactivity, while still having control mechanisms that are simpler than Mass Effect or FO3.

Ideally, a UO game would be built specifically for PC, and I would hope that this will be PC-first (probably a more realistic goal than PC-exclusive). But they can't really use consoles as reason for reflexive simplification anymore. There's more than enough fucking buttons on those things (I don't own a console, but I look at the controller and I see the equivalent of separate ASDW and 'numberpad arrows' control keys (the two joysticks), at least 6 buttons within easy reach and then usually at least a couple more control options that could be used for your rarer keybindings. That's 16 keybindings in play - even in the early 90s (fuck, even playing early Wizardry/Ultima in the 80s), there was absolutely no fucking excuse for a game to need more than 16 keys, including your movement keys.

It's not an ideal way of controlling a complex game, but still: 16 keys. It's the equivalent of being back in the days before games let you rebind your control keys (and before the days when games stopped letting you rebind your control keys). Irritating, but clearly fucking doable.

And from what I gather, plenty of console genres use that kind of control complexity all the fucking time, and have done for ages. The last time I played a console game was back in the days of Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat 1-2 and Mario Kart...and even then I'd be scrapping at the controls going 'wait, it's left, down, rig...how the fuck do I do this move????'', while my console-owning friends would shrug and do those combos as though they were single key-presses on a keyboard.

Now that console gamers are used to 3D navigation and the basic notion of FP-RPG mechanics (or at least, navigating in 3D while selecting options other than 'shoot'), there's no excuse for consolitis to mean anything other than an annoying, but hardly fatal, restriction on map sizes.

 

[buzz]

On the other hand, you have the Thief reboot so AIDS is still a pretty big deal.

Anyway, I think the "dumb down for consoles" argument is made more in terms of the audiences rather than technological problems. I don't know how real that is but it is what developers think, that the console audience (which is bigger I think and more prone to buying shit) wants button-awesome.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Nice and I agree, however I believe the most significant difference is the fidelity and intuitively speedy input of a mouse versus the inaccurate, sluggish thumb stick. Menus, navigation and actions on console games are designed for the thumb, which lacks in the fine motor skill department as compared to a hand on a mouse.

 

[Abelian]

haven't cured it, and we could really do with a vaccine, but for rich fuckers who can afford a good gaming computer, it's no longer fatal

I think your analogy breaks down at one point...

I'd rather prefer devs not cutting features out of a game just so that it can be played on consoles. That would just bring things to the lowest common denominator (literally and figuratively).

 

[CyberP]

Ideally, a UO game would be built specifically for PC, and I would hope that this will be PC-first (probably a more realistic goal than PC-exclusive). But they can't really use consoles as reason for reflexive simplification anymore. There's more than enough fucking buttons on those things (I don't own a console, but I look at the controller and I see the equivalent of separate ASDW and 'numberpad arrows' control keys (the two joysticks), at least 6 buttons within easy reach and then usually at least a couple more control options that could be used for your rarer keybindings. That's 16 keybindings in play - even in the early 90s (fuck, even playing early Wizardry/Ultima in the 80s), there was absolutely no fucking excuse for a game to need more than 16 keys, including your movement keys.

It's not an ideal way of controlling a complex game, but still: 16 keys.

24 keys immediately to hand, analogue (pressure sensitive) triggers & buttons plus a slightly inferior mouselook. Vibration feedback for a more immersive experience also. This is what stock console pads are equipped with.

I don't know who you are trying to convince with this post, other than other ignorant gamers such as yourself. It indeed has always been possible for consoles to accommodate complex games, it has been done time and time again over the years. The most notable example given the context would be Ultima Underworld itself.
You also contradicted yourself numerous times in this post, not that I was expecting anything less. "hurr durr I cannot comprehend simplistic Street Fighter combos yet I consider myself an enlightened gamer for playing cRPGs".
"I factually state it's not an ideal way of controlling a game despite fuck all knowledge of the subject matter and an inability to comprehend 4 button combos".

For me, as someone adept with various control methods, I find certain console pads to be a far superior method of input in many instances over M+K. Where M+K shines is with FPS or a cursor-heavy game, otherwise you are better off using a pad for almost any other type of game (yet a pad still has no real issue handling FPS or cursor-heavy games, and also has differing benefits of it's own).
In general, PC-only types I find far more aggravating than console-only types for taking a monacled stance when they haven't a clue what they are talking about nine times out of ten.
At least the most sheepish of console-only players shut up and sit in the corner with their popamole...six times out of ten.

Nice and I agree, however I believe the most significant difference is the fidelity and intuitively speedy input of a mouse versus the inaccurate, sluggish thumb stick. Menus, navigation and actions on console games are designed for the thumb, which lacks in the fine motor skill department as compared to a hand on a mouse.

The Mouse is notably more precise yet modern analogue sticks are not far behind. A skilled pad user has no real problem with fine motor skills, precise interface management, aiming and so on.
Additionally, Ultima Underworld is a slow-ass game. where the precision of the mouse truly matters is when nanoseconds are at stake, which for the most part is in Multiplayer arena shooters.
This series (including Arx Fatalis) has a solid track record on consoles so there is not an issue here.

It was asked on the forums there but there was no response. I've spent some time on the forums there but it there is a high level of shit coming from cyberP whoeverthefuck that is.

Listen up fucktard, stand to attention. I'm taking the initiative here and you're going to follow my lead. You may be content to watch Neurath's games be unsuccessful again whilst the popamole flourishes, but I'm not. Get off the fucking codex bitching and whining about popamole and instead do something about it: activating Infinitron mode would be a good start.
According to you "high levels of shit"= showing long overdue support. Ironically by whining about me you are doing what the Codex refers to as "shitposting". Shut the fuck up and follow my lead.

 

[Morgoth]

Console ports would mean insta-boycott. I could deal with the tunnel-vision FOV and dumbed down graphics, but not with an UI & control scheme accommodated for gamepads.

 

[CyberP]

Console ports would mean insta-boycott. I could deal with the tunnel-vision FOV and dumbed down graphics, but not with an UI & control scheme accommodated for gamepads.

Aside from "dumbed down" graphics (you should really look up the definition of dumbed down, you dummy), this is all bad design that again is not determined by platform. Still, I feel the fury on this one. Lazy assholes with their shitty console ports, yet the type of game that receives this treatment is almost always shit to begin with so it doesn't bother me too much.

 

[Morgoth]

Look kiddo, I like my oldskool to be deliberately clunky, with laborious inventory fiddling and awkward movements and what not, because that's part of the charm. When designing a game with the console kiddies in mind they'd have to refocus most of their attention to usability and idiot-proof mechanics to avoid butthurt-rage and twitter-wars, and forfeit all those little accidential flaws and meta-gaming tidbits that makes games so beautifully memorable in the first place.

 

[CyberP]

Look kiddo, I like my oldskool to be deliberately clunky, with laborious inventory fiddling and awkward movements and what not, because that's part of the charm.

If you think LGS wanted any of their games to be clunky then you are so very wrong. They wanted their games to be immersive, and clunkiness is the antithesis of this.
Laborious inventory fiddling? Certainly part of the charm, and was only truly clunky in Ultima Underworld. All subsequent Immersive Sims got less clunky in this regard every iteration and rightfully so.

When designing a game with the console kiddies in mind they'd have to refocus most of their attention to usability and idiot-proof mechanics to avoid butthurt-rage and twitter-wars, and forfeit all those little accidential flaws and meta-gaming tidbits that makes games so beautifully memorable in the first place.

Well hopefully the game won't be designed for the common denominator. Note the wording. Not "console kiddies". There is no shortage of...lesser PC gamers that think Skyrim, Mass Effect and Bioshock are the most intellectually fulfilling games of all time (as one example), I assure you.

 

[CyberP]

If you think LGS wanted any of their games to be clunky then you are so very wrong. They wanted their games to be immersive, and clunkiness is the antithesis of this.
Laborious inventory fiddling? Certainly part of the charm, and was only truly clunky in Ultima Underworld. All subsequent Immersive Sims got less clunky in this regard every iteration and rightfully so.

Though the inclining design stopped at System Shock 2, Arx Fatalis and Deus Ex of course. Biocock doesn't even have an inventory (and is not an Immersive Sim as far as I am concerned).

 

[Morgoth]

They wanted their games to be immersive, and clunkiness is the antithesis of this.

So far the theory.

Immersivness always stems from a well-thought out and tested core design, that is true, but I think it is the struggle and limitations of the engine/toolset that brings developers to inventive, often counter-intuitive, solutions. Clunky solutions that seem to rather amplify immersivness rather than impeding it. Go figure. The brain works in weird ways.

I still want to interrupt the game every 20 secs and fiddle in menus, combine shit with my mouse and give me a cheap pretext not to rush into that dark scary hole so let me fiddle in my inventory alright. Perhaps you're right and they can make the meta-gaming work on consoles (they certainly did in the Souls series) without the audience going ballistic and spread hate and disinformation, but I'd rather not count on it.

 

[CyberP]

Immersivness always stems from a well-thought out and tested core design, that is true, but I think it is the struggle and limitations of the engine/toolset that brings developers to inventive, often counter-intuitive, solutions.

When I speak of clunkiness in this type of game I am referring to various animations, movement behaviour (physics, responsiveness, movement anims), and sometimes the control scheme (Ultima Underworld primarily). I do not consider their inventory systems, or any other systems to be counter-intuitive. I absolutely love their inventory & interaction systems and consider them to be the most simulated/immersive & in-depth form of interaction in gaming to date.

Clunky solutions that seem to rather amplify immersivness rather than impeding it.

No, it's just the games' all-round great design that has your full attention. The dated clunkiness can be abolished with nothing lost.

Perhaps you're right and they can make the meta-gaming work on consoles (they certainly did in the Souls series) without the audience going ballistic and spread hate and disinformation, but I'd rather not count on it.

Complex games have been done time and time again on consoles. If this turns out shit that means OE has let us down because money, but I really doubt that's going to happen. If it did I'm not sure I could hold it against them because of what happened in the past, but I assume Neurath got fed up working for the corporate Zynga and wanted to go full nerd again.
This is a type of game that is long overdue for revival and further progress. Not just making it old school, but taking it further. They claimed they wanted to innovate again anyway.
Anyway, get hyped for the design concepts!
.

 

[Sonus]

Ya know, maybe learn to economize your posts over there, so there's more game-making and quick-reference reading for that small team, and not this expectation that flooding the boards and having them read all that will sway them more.

 

[CyberP]

Ya know, maybe learn to economize your posts over there, so there's more game-making, quick-reference, sum-up, for that small team, and not this expectation that flooding the boards and having them read all that will sway them more.

The primary intention is not to flood the boards you tard. That would merely be a side effect.

 

[Azrael the cat]

It indeed has always been possible for consoles to accommodate complex games, it has been done time and time again over the years. The most notable example given the context would be Ultima Underworld itself.

No shit sherlock. There's plenty that could be added to that list, and there wasn't really any negative relationship between PCs and consoles until the launch of the original Xbox. But the ability to make good games on console did not stop developers from streamlining/cutting mechanics from PC franchises in order to extend them to the console market. This was initially because console gamers weren't used to the playstyles of common PC genres (3D realtime navigation in FP, in particular, takes getting used to). But one very large factor was that developers (not me, fucktard, developers) had the notion that dealing with more than 3-4 buttons on the fly was too much for consoles. As I pointed out, that excuse should never have flown, and it definitely doesn't now.

The major console technical limitation was always RAM, and consequently things like level size and number of objects one can interact with on a map. You had to sacrifice a lot more graphics and interaction to get anything approaching the same map size as an equivalent PC. Yes, that also applied to the original UU ports (which, wisely, sacrificed aesthetics instead of content). This was never a problem prior to the X-Box, and wasn't much of a problem for the PS2's games. It came about because the traditional console hardware was never designed for playing PC games - it didn't stop consoles from having great games, just great versions of PC genre

If you want to see an example of a game that was butchered due to this limitation - and this has held up over the years in developer accounts of why certain aspects are the way they are - play DE: Invisible War.

"hurr durr I cannot comprehend simplistic Street Fighter combos yet I consider myself an enlightened gamer for playing cRPGs". "I factually state it's not an ideal way of controlling a game despite fuck all knowledge of the subject matter and an inability to comprehend 4 button combos".

Learn to read, fucktard. I was talking about the system of having large numbers of action keys, without the ability to rebind them. I was quite explicitly talking about the systems common to the crpgs I played in the 80s and early 90s.

Do you SERIOUSLY still believe that Ultima 2 had a good control scheme? That Wizardry 1-3 had good control schemes? Not being able to rebind your keys was a complete bitch. It was doable, and right the way through to SS2 I recall it being standard to play with the key reference page to one side. But it certainly wasn't fucking ideal.

Wait, are you SERIOUSLY saying that not being able to rebind your keys is ideal? Given that's the wording I used, that the old 80s interfaces were 'not an ideal way of controlling a game'? Do you complain when a game gives you the ability to rebind, crying 'but not being able to rebind keys IS THE IDEAL SYSTEM!!'

Oh....I see. You're illiterate. You thought I was saying that the console controller wasn't well-suited to fighting games and other console genres. Sorry dude, I can't help you with basic literacy.

 

[Infinitron]

Whoa. Pissing off Azrael like that is no mean feat.

 

[CyberP]

Azareal: apologies for being rude. The Codex does this to people.

This was initially because console gamers weren't used to the playstyles of common PC genres (3D realtime navigation in FP, in particular, takes getting used to).

Eh? First person games were more common on PC at the time, certainly, but the consoles were not shy of FPP games.

The major console technical limitation was always RAM, and consequently things like level size and number of objects one can interact with on a map. You had to sacrifice a lot more graphics and interaction to get anything approaching the same map size as an equivalent PC. Yes, that also applied to the original UU ports (which, wisely, sacrificed aesthetics instead of content). This was never a problem prior to the X-Box, and wasn't much of a problem for the PS2's games. It came about because the traditional console hardware was never designed for playing PC games - it didn't stop consoles from having great games, just great versions of PC genre

If you want to see an example of a game that was butchered due to this limitation - and this has held up over the years in developer accounts of why certain aspects are the way they are - play DE: Invisible War.

Games have been butchered before due to this, yes. Needlessly. You make the optimal version on the PC, then you chop up the console maps with extra loading zones. No need to sacrifice content. Of course instead it's the reverse for all the sell-out studios because consoles hold the bigger market.

Learn to read, fucktard. I was talking about the system of having large numbers of action keys, without the ability to rebind them. I was quite explicitly talking about the systems common to the crpgs I played in the 80s and early 90s.

Do you SERIOUSLY still believe that Ultima 2 had a good control scheme? That Wizardry 1-3 had good control schemes? Not being able to rebind your keys was a complete bitch. It was doable, and right the way through to SS2 I recall it being standard to play with the key reference page to one side. But it certainly wasn't fucking ideal.

Wait, are you SERIOUSLY saying that not being able to rebind your keys is ideal? Given that's the wording I used, that the old 80s interfaces were 'not an ideal way of controlling a game'? Do you complain when a game gives you the ability to rebind, crying 'but not being able to rebind keys IS THE IDEAL SYSTEM!!'

Oh....I see. You're illiterate. You thought I was saying that the console controller wasn't well-suited to fighting games and other console genres. Sorry dude, I can't help you with basic literacy.

Enjoyed reading you fly off the handle and proceed with a blind presumptuous rant there. Seriously though, I was a rude prick when it was uncalled for so I apologize.

 

[Raistlin]

I like my oldskool to be deliberately clunky, with laborious inventory fiddling and awkward movements and what not, because that's part of the charm. When designing a game with the console kiddies in mind they'd have to refocus most of their attention to usability and idiot-proof mechanics to avoid butthurt-rage and twitter-wars, and forfeit all those little accidential flaws and meta-gaming tidbits that makes games so beautifully memorable in the first place.

I agree completely, as I am the same way. I am 40 now, and I played my first Ultima when I was 8! I love the old games, and it was awesome to watch the technology go from its infancy to the pinnacle of the late 90's down through to the overbloated 3d games of today! :D

I still prefer the masterful poise and charm of the older games. They really knew how to grab the audience and make them feel special for a time. I also love Wizardry and all the spinoffs of the 80s, but most of all, I love Might and Magic.