You're confusing beliefs based on opinion with beliefs based on facts and doing so intentionally to build a strawman. I'm not playing your game.
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1eyedking Vampire: The Masquerade - goth cringe or Christian apologetic?
- Thread starter J1M
- Start date
You're confusing beliefs based on opinion with beliefs based on facts and doing so intentionally to build a strawman. I'm not playing your game.
Cryomancer
Arcane
No, I'm just showing that no human can chose what to believe or fell hence demanding faith and love makes no sense. Even people who convert to your religion often come with reasons in his/her life, not just "chose" a new religion.
There you go with another strawman. You chose what you believe or are you a moron that can't think for yourself? Are you some kind of retarded robot that can't form your own opinions? If you say you have no free will then suck start a shotgun as I command you.
You are under the impression that faith must be blind. It's not always that way. There are those of us that have faith because of facts. I love everyone as I'm commanded. The scripture doesn't say I have to like them.
This is also another strawman because you're fucking moron.
Guys. The Kindreds stories about the origins of the world are... Partial? Ahem, Mages would name the original fracturing of the Whole, while Garous would def talk about the Impergium, before naming the fucking deluge. Again the setting is called OWoD or World of Darkness. Hell, probably the most complete recounting of events you can find in Kindred of the East (2nd edition iirc), the previous ages and the Wan Xian. Exalted, one of the last products that White Wolf originally produced before changing its face forever, had this little seal on the back of 1st edition book "Age of Sorrow".
That should have been the original Fantasy Setting leading towards the modern World of Darkness as we know. Christian trappings and folklore are only ways of explaining in-game effects. It's pointed over and over, for example, that it's the power of faith, and not a specific symbol tha allows a true mortal practicioner to repel kindreds.
That should have been the original Fantasy Setting leading towards the modern World of Darkness as we know. Christian trappings and folklore are only ways of explaining in-game effects. It's pointed over and over, for example, that it's the power of faith, and not a specific symbol tha allows a true mortal practicioner to repel kindreds.
Delterius
Arcane
Kinda wish they didn't do that either. It would be best to leave hints that could go either way. Disenchanting the setting by confirming too much of a 'christian mythos' while at the same time having these anecdotes about the 'Free Marketeer Economist who wards off vampires with his credit card' (gettit because its faith not symbols that matter even though God is totally real and gave caine superpowers) is a golden ticket to making your setting into a silly place that needs to be homebrewed by the DM.
Instead the past should be a mysterious place. You should be aware of how vampires love to take on the names of legendary figures from scripture and folk lore so maybe it's all bunk. But you should also have these moments where a holy relic wards off evil creatures. And you can't tell either way if it's because of divine providence, human magic, or both.
Saduj
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2012
- Messages
- 2,549
You seem to be missing the most important factor: God. Created everything, knows everything, can alter reality effortlessly, etc. How was humanity not wiped out in the flood and able to repopulate from a single family? Because God wanted it so. You might not like it but there is no part of Christian "mythology" that can't be explained with "God".
You can say that is no fun for a fantasy setting. But it isn't any more unbelievable than vampires and magic being real. IMO, a God that can flood the Earth but is then limited by the laws of nature and physics as to what has to happen next really makes no sense.
Cryomancer
Arcane
How the statement that people believe in things by many reasons and not by personal choice a strawman??? If you believe that X is truth, can you just decide that you will no longer believe that X is truth?
I'm not atheist. Only because I don't believe that a desert religion imposed by Constantine which is so contradictory that not even Christians agrees with themselves, doesn't mean that I'm atheist. For eg, you believe in Free will, a Calvinist who read exactly the same book doesn't believe and believe in predestination. Can't a omnipotent deity be more clear with his supposed message?
Anyway, imagine that a necromancer creates a form of undead in D&D which can reproduce and has intellect. Imagine that this necromancer puts a fruit and said then to not eat it. They eat and despite the necromancer being able to only punishes this two, he does like Kin Jong Un does and punishes his entire bloodline. Then despite he being able to break teh curse at will, he makes a clone of himself that is himself by some unknown reason and sacrifice himself to himself to break the curse and revive his clone, and will break the curse on his creations but only if the undead obey his contradictory words and believes in a book with zero evidence. Is this necromancer good? Lucky that necromancer doesn't exist.
Nice point. However, a game that portraits deities far more ancient than Judaism as merely a "earthbound" demon has a very christian worldview. Downgrading Set into just a children of Cain(despite the myth of Set being millenniums more ancient than the Cain's myth) is also a christian worldview. That is my point. Vampire : The Masquarede is very christian.
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https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/...ce_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects
More then enough to cover the earth. In fact, atheistard evolutionists all agree that the earth was covered in ocean with no land masses in the beginning.
https://astronomy.com/news/2020/03/ancient-earth-may-have-been-a-water-world-without-any-dry-land
But but but it's totally impossible!11one!
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The point is, if you get at least the Core books of all the main games (plus maybe the above mentioned KotE, Mummy and Hengeyokai) the picture broadens a lot but doesn't necessarily get clearer. And I don't want to really derail this thread going heavily into Exalted territory but even with the 2nd ed retcon, it's quite clear the origin of the WoD Vampires and the reason we had so many different shapeshifters before is much more nuanced. As I said, it was an incredibly deep setting that personally gave me an endless wellspring of plot hooks and adventure ideas.
We went from pure investigation to mind theater (something they invented, after all) to adventuring, to dungeoneering. All with that cumbersome d10 system we come nonetheless to love because rolling a slew of dice is fun.
I have yet to see you disprove anything I've said that backs up the existence of God. In fact, you run away from it.
Oh yes, Constantine who created Catholicism 292 years after Yeshua created his Jewish sect that were called the Nazarites. You seem to be ignorant on that as well. Christianity extends back to Judaism of the 1st century. Do you usually ignore historical facts when it suits you? Also, Israel contains a diverse biome that goes from snow capped mountains to verdant fertile ground to deserts in the south.
You certainly act like an atheistard and cited one. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it must be a duck.
Edit: To embarrass you and your lack of knowledge even further there were four major sects of Judaism when Yeshua did his ministry. You had the Sadducees that were the priests, aristocracy, and merchants. Pharisees were the scribes and regular people. Ebionites which were Jews that believed that the Sadducees and Pharisees were corrupt and practiced in communes far from cities. Finally, you had the Nazarites that were in persecuted by the Sadducees and Pharisees for following Yeshua.
In 70 AD, when the temple fell, the Sadducees and Ebionites disappeared while the Pharisees reigned supreme. The Pharisees kicked out the Nazarites from the synagogue and towns because they had refused to fight to protect the temple. The Nazarites fled to Pella as per the prophecy written in Luke 21:20-24. That prophecy was written down prior to 62 AD. Which means that it was given while Yeshua was still alive in 33 AD.
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Why do you think God isn't bound by the laws he created? That would make him a lawbreaker and a sinner.
Delterius
Arcane
I was always just a reader, so I'd ask: did you ever find yourself 'homebrewing' the setting as it were? To remove ideas you didn't like or to smooth things out between the contradictions? Even if none of these decisions were known to the players?
Yes. For once, I didn't posses all the books when I started Storytelling. As many others, we started with Vampires so we took much for granted. Then, as we expanded the background and played other chronicles with different playables, we either retconned that or, more usually, explained that as "seeing things from different perspectives".
We played a number of different Chronicles in the WoD, cannot really remember the exact number but they were all more or less related. With some recurring NPCs, some events that were felts through multiple characters, many players stayed and some are still at my table nowadays (fortunately).
The last Chronicle we played in the WoD was an ambitious cross-over starting from the Vampire: The Dark Ages Setting and going towards the modern era (with much skipping, we didn't play centuries ofc). Each player had a differnt kind of creature, a Vampire (he ended up becoming quite powerful), A Garou that sired and swapped with some of his own children and ultimately inherited some totemic spirits to be up to date with the rest of the group, a Mummy and a Satyr changeling. All more or less able to withstand the ages, except the werewolf for which we had to workaround but it was gud nonetheless. They ended up killing each other.
Most of the times I had to homebrew because we preferred to play in Europe but there weren't many Yuro: by Night books to be had. Def not Florence: by Night, for Example. Also, White-Wolf in general was more prone to give you some juicy hooks and leave the rest up to the Storyteller than to give detailed stats and precise instruction like TSR, different approaches.
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Delterius
Arcane
thats very wholesome. who killed who?
Err. If my Brian can be trusted, The Mummy and the Satyr were allied, the Vampire tricked the Werewolf into drinking his blood (which allowed him to practice Dominate on him, otherwise he would have been immune). Dark ages allowed him to start as a 7th gen and he Diablerized someone down to 6th. Also committed an Infernal surplice or two, it's been something like 15 years.
Vampire was gibbed in the end tho, the Garou too although his own was more of an heroic sacrifice. The Satyr fucked someone obv.
J1M
Arcane
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 14,626
Much easier to believe if she isn't a Princess.
LarryTyphoid
Scholar
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2021
- Messages
- 2,233
I think he's a neo-pagan, or some sort of areligious occultist.I'm just making fun of the atheistard and destroying him for all to see.
You could argue they did this to allow for different kinds of whacky religious roleplay, like the Chaplain role in Space Station 13 (the credit card anecdote sounds exactly like SS13). Even then, I've never liked it either. I've only played Bloodlines, but Jack's beginning comment about shoving crucifixes up your ass soured me initially on VtM's integration of the religious mythology, and that initial impression was never contradicted. Mostly, it comes down to me wishing we had a Gothic vampire CRPG rather than the modern setting that is VtM's trademark, but even with the modern setting, you could make the vampires real vampires instead of some fake gay version.
I think he's a neo-pagan, or some sort of areligious occultist.I'm just making fun of the atheistard and destroying him for all to see.
Oh one of those morons that use a made up religion to feel good about themselves like the atheistards.
Wesp5 because Bloodlines is for all intents and purposes your game now, does the dominate attempt on Therese via dialogue affect your chances of settling their dispute? I was under the impression that the game keeps score of their approval. I never expected that you could do that even as a Ventrue.
Delterius
Arcane
I'd argue that the initial impression was contradicted by Bloodlines itself: 20 hours or so after Jack says crucifixes are pointless you have Bach using some sort of power to blind you. Jack was wrong and someone who hasn't read the books doesn't know why. You can't know if it's Bach's cross that is magic, that Bach himself is magic, or if maybe you need Catholic Church Fiat of the Highest Order to be able to ward off vampires. The icing on the cake is that Grunfeld Bach himself is so over the top that if you include the 'van helsing experiment' in Chinatown this entire thing becomes a set up to a joke. A subtle one at that.
It's only when reading the setting books / wikias / what have you that you understand how this mystery is 'solved'. Ie dragged behind the barn and shot. True Faith is a character stat that can mean anything.
mind you i'm not saying that a game of vampire can't be run where the mystery is alive and well. if anything i just argued the opposite: bloodlines, as an isolated campaign, does not have a glossary or a character that dispels the above 'mystery' so it works. but such a thing is never easy to do in live action and this burden of the Storyteller's is not lessened by the books.
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Beckett implies that he knows what's going on during your first encounter with him. When asked about Therese, he says "She's undoubtedly malkavian, or should I say, they are undoubtedly malkavian". Bertram Tung possibly said something about only one malkavian body being inhabited by two personalities.
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FTFY.
gaussgunner
Arcane
Those fuckers.
Yeah, absolutely not. As far as I know, the local tabletop crowd is full of SJWs, Polyamorists, Unitarians, and RPG.net users (but I repeat myself). This ain't what we call RPGs. They hinted that their "roleplaying" can be quite stunning and brave at times. Make out with the tranny, bigot!
As for the religious question, I've only played the VTM cRPGs. Bloodlines is lovable goth cringe, Redemption had more Christian themes but I wouldn't call it apologetic even in the original sense of "defending Christianity"; it's just content. In general the VTM IP draws heavily from Anne Rice, who in turn drew from the Old Testament and the ancient Egyptian religion. She may have been a Catholic but she renounced her faith recently and her fiction was always degenerate. There's some shit on wikipedia about her other early work (after Interview) featuring shapeshifting pony sodomy. Need I say more?
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