Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

1eyedking Vampire: The Masquerade - goth cringe or Christian apologetic?

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
no pnp experience will ever come close to actually interacting with Seyda Neen in a virtual world.

What pnp experience, Rusty? You clearly either had none, are trolling or the ones you had were bottom of the barrel, in terms of quality. Also, correcting typos of other posters is low.
 

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
Good. Acceptance is the first step. It's more or less the same when you read some dumb kid stating mediocre shit like Assassin Creed or God of War are the best cRPGs. You know they are utterly wrong but how do you fight ignorance? You are on the right path.
 

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
Dai Diamanti non nasce niente, dal Letame nascono i Fiori.

I suggest you google translate that pasta speak, since you can't brian translate. Deconstruct that Pride and you may even start to enjoy your hobbies again, insted of being butthurt all the time about them.

Pnp is also completely devoid of trannies, pronouns, misc YASS! qweens and out-of-place rayciss. At least at my table or any table I had the personal pleasure to take part. So that's yet another win for the almighty true source of our beloved genre (RPGs), supreme pnp.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Dai Diamanti non nasce niente, dal letame nascono i Fiori.

I suggest you google translate that pasta speak, since you can't brian translate. Deconstruct that Pride and you may even start to enjoy your hobbies again, insted of being butthurt all the time about them.

Pnp is also completely devoid of trannies, pronouns, misc YASS! qweens and out-of-place rayciss. At least at my table or any table I had the personal pleasure to take part. So that's yet another win for the almighty true source of our beloved genre (RPGs), supreme pnp.
setting a reminder for when we get a seething button to come back and rate this post with it
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,897
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
Nah, you have no idea what a properly managed pnp campaign is. You talk out of ignorance, I'm afraid. It's just sad.

No GM could in 10 minutes come up with this scale of complexity: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Seyda_Neen

Oh and don't forget the contents of that "draft" include the links in the page
So we're talking about the geography, the architecture, the people, the quests, the lore, the places, the countless objects, the contents of said objects (like the texts in the books), etc...

You or anybody else wanna look like idiots and claim once again that a human being can improvise this level of detail during a PnP session?

No computer ever will be able to improvise a new quest in Seyda Need. Even a poor GM will.
no pnp experience will ever come close to actually interacting with Seyda Neen in a virtual world.

Oh ye of damaged imagination. How I pity you.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
This is even more stupid than the creationism discussion now.
And creationism discussions are really idiotic to begin with...

If I had to place a bet on where the thread goes next, I'd say Hitler. Hard to go wrong with that guess.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Nah, you have no idea what a properly managed pnp campaign is. You talk out of ignorance, I'm afraid. It's just sad.

No GM could in 10 minutes come up with this scale of complexity: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Seyda_Neen

Oh and don't forget the contents of that "draft" include the links in the page
So we're talking about the geography, the architecture, the people, the quests, the lore, the places, the countless objects, the contents of said objects (like the texts in the books), etc...

You or anybody else wanna look like idiots and claim once again that a human being can improvise this level of detail during a PnP session?

No computer ever will be able to improvise a new quest in Seyda Need. Even a poor GM will.
no pnp experience will ever come close to actually interacting with Seyda Neen in a virtual world.

Oh ye of damaged imagination. How I pity you.
Imagination is for poor people AKA eastern europeans
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,336
Location
Crait
Sorry to disagree with ya bud, but he's right. In a cRPG you are limited to what you can do by what the programmers programmed into it. With PnP you can literally do anything and go anywhere. You can control your character exactly how you want. That is depth.

Sure PnP RPG's give the player unlimited freedom of action, but ironically that's limited by a game systems that can't deal with complex systems/simulations and the fact that the "setting" you perform those actions in, will always be vague not only to support that freedom, but also because (like mondblut said) GM's just can't "design" scenarios with much detail
This one has not read the Peterson.

DJOGamer PT Let me ask you - which is more complex or detailed - a large rpg (say Baldur's Gate 2 or World of Warcraft), or the Marvel Comics multiverse?
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,350
Location
Lusitânia
No GM could in 10 minutes come up with this scale of complexity

No GM worth his salt prepares a session in ten minutes. And a campaign sometimes is the result of years of thoughts and processing. Again, you literally have no idea.

So you literally agree with me that no GM can improvise something of great detail and scale


No computer ever will be able to improvise a new quest in Seyda Need. Even a poor GM will.

Sure
But like I have proven, whatever the GM comes up with will be vague and perhaps not even consistent with the rest of the setting and campaign
Meaning that even the best GM can't compete with an average quest designer, as the latter actually can provide a concrete and expansive experience


DJOGamer PT Let me ask you - which is more complex or detailed - a large rpg (say Baldur's Gate 2 or World of Warcraft), or the Marvel Comics multiverse?

Marvel Comics have been written for roughly 60 years
While BG2 and WoW were written in what, 5 years maybe?

So it's already an unfair comparasion
But still despite that, even if latter isn't as complex and detailed as the former, they maybe aren't that far behind
And individually they would bfto of even the most "expansive" works including the Ultimate comics or the MCU

And that's all to do with the simple fact that they are videogames, so the they something exclusively unique to them - interactivity and reactivity

I've already said something like this in another thread
The reason why videogames are so much harder to write for is because, unlike a book/movie/comic/show that are nothing but a "window" to a setting, the game is the setting
While the former just presents the audience with a limited perpective which they can do nothing about, in the game you are the actor and you can interact with the setting
 

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
So you literally agree with me that no GM can improvise something of great detail and scale

No. You cannot into engrish, mate. You simply don't improvise all that, you prepare in different ways. Ignorance isn't sin tho, I don't hate you for that.

Sure
But like I have proven, whatever the GM comes up with will be vague and perhaps not even consistent with the rest of the setting and campaign
Meaning that even the best GM can't compete with an average quest designer, as the latter actually can provide a concrete and expansive experience

You've proven, quite literally, nothing. I can name thousand of vapid cRPGS experiences. All samey. Can't really be hassled to start posting images from my campaigns and sessiosn because it would be too much pointless flexing and I'm lazy af when it comes to that. You got no experience and talk out of your ass about how you think pnp works.
 

Storyfag

Perfidious Pole
Patron
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
15,897
Location
Stealth Orbital Nuke Control Centre
But like I have proven, whatever the GM comes up with will be vague and perhaps not even consistent with the rest of the setting and campaign
Meaning that even the best GM can't compete with an average quest designer, as the latter actually can provide a concrete and expansive experience

You moronic retard, given time to prepare, like CRPG quest designers, a GM will produce equally compelling narrative. However there is one area where the GM holds untold advantage: improvisation. You see, little subhuman bug, there is no possibility for improvisation in CRPGs, they only contain previously prepared content. A GM will have prepared his own content, but can also improvise at whim.

So you literally agree with me that no GM can improvise something of great detail and scale

No. You cannot into engrish, mate. You simply don't improvise all that, you prepare in different ways. Ignorance isn't sin tho, I don't hate you for that.

Conversely, *I* hate him for that.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,350
Location
Lusitânia
No. You cannot into engrish, mate. You simply don't improvise all that, you prepare in different ways.

I am the one that doesn't understand english? :D

Dude this whole discussion was about how GM can improvise quests and adventures
Storyfag and other posters claimed that GM could improvise something with as much detail as a settlement in Daggerfall, and my position was that they couldn't

And you have just for the second time agreed with me that GM's can't improsive shit
But at the same time you're denying my position, even though you said yet again that GM don't improvise they plan beforehand

This is just getting silly :lol:


You've proven, quite literally, nothing.

Yes I have
I have proven because of the limited nature of PnP RPG's in both system simulation and inability of it's human GM's to craft and keep consistent track of highly complex and detailed settings, PnP adventures can't ultimately be as elaborate adventures for players as CRPG can

The only thing PnP RPG's can provide over CRPG's is a higher degree of player freedom
 
Last edited:

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
I am the one that doesn't understand english? :D

Yes.

Dude this whole discussion was about how GM can improvise quests and adventures

No. Go back and read. It was about how cRPGs cannot and will never reach the depth that pnp easily reaches on a common basis. Not even the sacred bests of cRPGs can. It's written in english.

Storyfag and other posters claimed that GM could improsive something with as much detail as a settlement in Daggerfall, and my position was that they couldn't

Lol. Daggerfall has literally zero details. Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. Can you get even more wrong than you are? Do you at least play the cRPGs you name?

And you have just for the second time agreed with me that GM's can't improsive shit

No. I told you you can't read. I'm now also telling you that you're either not very bright or you are trying to troll with a very low skill.

This is just getting silly :lol:

It got silly when you stated Seyda Neen was more detailed than your run of the mill pnp village, I agree.

Yes I have
I have proven because of the limited nature of PnP RPG's in both system simulation and inability of it's human GM's to craft and keep consistent track of highly complex and detailed settings, PnP adventures can't ultimately be as elaborate adventures for players as CRPG can

No.

The only thing PnP RPG's can provide over CRPG's is a higher degree of player freedom

Again, no. Play pnp, get back when you have some experience, talk like a man does.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,468
Location
Frostfell
No. Go back and read. It was about how cRPGs cannot and will never reach the depth that pnp easily reaches on a common basis. Not even the sacred bests of cRPGs can. It's written in english.

Exactly. Imagine NWN2 OC Trial in P&P, that would be 1000 times better. The DM would be able to improvise skill checks, players able to improvise defense strategies, the DM will be able to use the class and PC backgroun against him(...)
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
Exactly. Any half-decent GM will have prepared a village draft to be utilised in exactly this situation.

...to be used regardless of the direction the party chooses to take. :roll:

Yeah, humans can improvise, but I find the game worlds hanging on constant improvisation... lacking. Can't shake the feeling that the GM is just bluffing and bullshitting me until I get tired of pestering him. He won't remember any of this on-the-fly exposition come tomorrow.

Same reason I hate randomly generated worlds. It's just smoke and mirrors, man.
 
Last edited:

Matalarata

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
2,646
Location
The threshold line
Imagine NWN2 OC Trial in P&P

If I was to name a true honest-to-heart difficult to reproduce city, that would be Sigil from Planescape: Torment. Loads of text, even seemingly insignificant NPCs have loads of personality. The city opens to you gradually and organically. That's hard to pull off, not impossible, just complex to do in a satisfactory way.


Daggerfall and Seyda Neen.

lol


edit, instead of double post:

Yeah, humans can improvise, but I find the game worlds hanging on constant improvisation... lacking.

Ofc, if your idea of GM improvisation is him making up everything on the spot, that's shit. Since I more or less know your tastes I won't even name more linear games and campaigns (In CoC, for example, you're more often than not forced by events in certain directions). In a sandbox, you prepare the overarching information you need to answer your players questions and react to their actions. Eg: I would stat and name the 8-10 most important NPCs in a given small town and then draft a series of topics the population is currently speaking about, local legends and religious cults, history, geography, food... The list goes on. I really have no rules when I do this, whatever I feel could give me some character, I throw into the kitchen sink, if I feel it's adecuate ofc. A general descritption of local attires and genotypes/phenotypes also goes there.

Then you place boundaries inside that. The town has districts? Cults? Are there factions or clans? At that point, if the PCs decide to interact with a random farmer, fisher or pauper during the adventure, I simply create someone following those lines. I usually also have a list of names ready. When I do so, I write down the name and a short description of what I'm telling them. Experience thaught me that PCs will most often than not, go back to someone you already presented them to ask more questions or such. Another reason why statting a whole village is an exercise in futility.

...to be used regardless of the direction the party chooses to take. :roll:

Exactly. No precise scripting will ever survive contact with player characters. We regularly try to break cRPGs, it's only normal for human players to try and do the same at a pnp table. The more loose and adaptable (and deep) your gamewrold is, the better it can withstand, surprise and ultimately, bite your players in the arse.
 
Last edited:

janjetina

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
14,231
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
Torment: Tides of Numenera
This is you creating a strawman.

No, is not. A single family in few dozens of generations would not generate the human diversity that we have and will only generate genetic defects. You din't showed any evidence that incest in past would have different results in the past.

Since it's a Gallup Poll I can guarantee you that it was a small sample size and misleading questions that makes it statistically irrelevant. Try again princess.

I posted a christian site. The biggest christian denomination is the Catholicism and they aren't "solo scriptura".

his is another strawman because scripture describes a spherical universe and world in Psalms 19 written by King David in 1015 BC

bZinoVx.png


A lot of myths from the bible assumes a flat earth. That includes the Babel tower, Joshua stopping the sun and so on.

. If there isn't free will then you think identically to what everyone else does

Wrong. If there is no free will, I will think accordingly to a lot of factors, like my genes, my culture, my experiences(...) My point is that nobody can chose to love or hate X or Y nor can chose to believe in the book A or the book B, people will believe in A or B by a lot of reasons. The point is, we can't choose our genes, culture and etc. Just like our haircolor is written in our genes, much of our desires and "will" is written in our genes. Humans do have a will but not a "free" will.

Some people even become criminals after suffering brain damage. Can they chose to not have the personality changed? https://www.businessinsider.com/brain-damage-can-turn-people-into-criminals-2018-2?op=1

history of Abraham? Of course not since you're an ignorant savage on pretty much everything. Abraham was Chaldean as he was from the city of Ur. He was a scientist, mathematician, and astronomer. He came to his conclusion of their only being one god was due to his observations of the universe and concluded that the planets etc... were all ordered by a single deity.

Abraham, the guy who got tested by a omniscient deity who knows that he would sacrifice his son anyway but tested him by no good reason? And the unvierse is not ordered. The unique is pure chaos. And please, don't confuse chaos with randomness. The ancient norse creation myth makes way more sense than anything else.

-----------------------

Back to RPGs

Sorry to disagree with ya bud, but he's right. In a cRPG you are limited to what you can do by what the programmers programmed into it. With PnP you can literally do anything and go anywhere. You can control your character exactly how you want. That is depth.

This I strongly agree. Unless someone code a amazing AI, P&P RPG will give much more freedom than any CRPG.
janjetina Deja vu, no?

Fedora tippers are retarded. No matter how many arguments you present, they will just stare at them without comprehension and go on blabbering on how euphoric they are. They are unable to think outside their demented metaphysical commitment.

Given that Christianity is true [which it is], origin of humanity in a single genetically identical pair (Adam and Eve) is perfectly consistent with findings of modern genetics. Namely, Adam and Eve were created with supernatural grace and many preternatural gifts, including the gift of integrity, by which their lower faculties (memory, senses, passions, body) were controlled by the higher faculties (intellect and will) and were impervious to disease and aging. In mechanic details, there were no replication errors in Adam and Eve an they were created with identical, but perfect genome, with no deleterious alleles.

This has changed with the original sin. At that point all supernatural and preternatural gifts were withheld from Adam and Eve, and death and corruption (disease and aging) became part of the corrupt human nature. Replication errors were introduced, somatic mutations as a cause of aging and germline mutations as cause of hereditary genetic diseases down the line. 50-100 of them per generation in germline. It took generations until germline mutations became a factor, so that hereditary genetic diseases appeared. That was the point when incest became contrary to natural law and hence immoral. But by that point human population was numerous and genetically diverse.

The upshot is that incest is contrary to natural law because it increases the probability of spreading hereditary genetic diseases, but that was not a factor with Adam and Eve (and a few subsequent generations) because their genome contained no deleterious germline mutations.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,468
Location
Frostfell
is perfectly consistent with findings of modern genetics.

No, is not.

Dr Francis Collins, a Christian in his bestseller book "the language of god", said that the humanity originate from a population of about 10 thousand and that Adan and Eve don't fit the evidence ( source : https://youtu.be/86sv2QL2wQ0?t=871 )

e original sin.

That story never made any sense.

Lets suppose that a powerful necromancer decides to create (un)life intelligent who can reproduce. He says that they should't eat a magic fruit which would give knowledge to then and after they disobey him(and he knows that they would disobey with divination magic) and he proceeds to not only curse the two, but in a North Korea style, curse his entire bloodline. The curse? Similar to corprus disease from Morrowind, they will be forever and ever in a perpetual state of torture. Then he regrets despite saying that he never regrets and wanna forgive, but he can't despite claiming omnipotence, so he makes a clone of himself which is his son and himself at the same time and sacrifices himself to himself, so he can break the curse, but only those who love him above everything else and can believe in a book full of contradictions, all others must suffer for the eternity. And his grimoire is so confuse and with contradictions that the followers of his teachings constantly kill themselves over his zealous interpretation of his books and is like nobody agrees with what he says.

Does this story makes any sense? Is the necromancer in question good? IMO if he is a villain of a D&D campaign, No Dark Lord of Ravenloft, no Demon Lord or Devil in D&D is more evil than him.

ecause their genome contained no deleterious germline mutations.

Still no evidence.
 
Last edited:

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,350
Location
Lusitânia
Dude this whole discussion was about how GM can improvise quests and adventures

No. Go back and read. It was about how cRPGs cannot and will never reach the depth that pnp easily reaches on a common basis. Not even the sacred bests of cRPGs can. It's written in english.

It was about that too, but this back and forth started because I claimed that GM couldn't improvise something with as much detail as Seyda Neen


Now as for your claim
What do you mean by "depth"?

Immense detail to the Worldbuilding and individual levels?
Then CRPG blow PnP out of the water, the reason being simple, computers can "remember" huge amounts of data in a way no human can
And again the only example I need to present to prove my point is Seyda Neen

Do you mean complexity in the gameplay systems?
Also anyone can see how CRPG's are unmatched by PnP in that regard, as computers are made to process multiple high-end calculations at the same time
This allows for immensely more complex simulations than any human brain can't hope to match

Once again, the only thing that PnP has over CRPG is player freedom (which again is by itself limited by the above considerations)



Lol. Daggerfall has literally zero details. Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. Can you get even more wrong than you are? Do you at least play the cRPGs you name?

What you are referring to is worldbulding quality, not the quantity of details
In which case the city of Daggerfall alone is enough to fill out a tome



And you have just for the second time agreed with me that GM's can't improsive shit

No. I told you you can't read.

And you also literally said GM's don't improvise a session, they plan it beforehand:
Look it's here:

No GM worth his salt prepares a session in ten minutes. And a campaign sometimes is the result of years of thoughts and processing.
You simply don't improvise all that, you prepare in different ways.



It got silly when you stated Seyda Neen was more detailed than your run of the mill pnp village, I agree.

Well but it is, and you still haven't proven otherwise :lol:
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom