Verticality and modern blobbers / dungeon crawlers.

[Gandalf]

I've started to daydream about making a Wizardry-like and and just had an idea of adding greater verticallity to the level desing by building the level with the cubes (similar to Minecraft, but movement would still be grid based).
Imagine the possibilities of such a cool design. Ropes, ladders, rock climbing, teleports, jumping through the chasms, totally hidden places, ascending, descending and so on...

Would you like something like this in your Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler or would you be against such a design? Have you seen a Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler game like this before?

 

[NecroLord]

Heck yeah.
Make the dungeon humongous in size, like the ones in Daggerfall.
Traps, skull teleporters, lots of monsters.
Also take a look at Thief's "Down Into the Bonehoard" for a pertinent example of a great dungeon.

 

[grimer]

Would you like something like this in your Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler

yes, especially if verticality actually adds depth to traversing the dungeon and isn't just used for flavor or some inconsequential side path with a chest. i like when levels of a dungeon actually feel connected instead of being self-contained where you just fully explore each of them one by one as you go along. basically more like wizardry 6-7 instead of wizardry 1 in terms of dungeon design.

Have you seen a Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler game like this before?

the rattkin funhouse in wizardry 7 had plenty of verticality for a 2d perspective game which imo was creatively implemented both in terms of level design and flavor. in addition to the many chutes and ladders, there was also a seesaw & anvil, a launch pad, escalator and a waterslide that runs through the entire dungeon. all of the levels are connected too so the verticality translates well if this dungeon was in 3d. for example, there was one part where you needed to hang a rope from the level above so you can swing across the gap at the end of the waterslide.

wizardry 8 had trynton but it was really basic so if someone could take that and make it 100x more complex that would be cool.

 

[Butter]

In theory, gridless blobbers should be better suited to verticality. You can look around in every direction and get a full sense of the geography, as you would in something like Ultima Underworld or Ocarina of Time. Wizardry 8 did a little bit of this, but nowhere near as much as it should have. As you pointed out, Wizardry 6 and 7 actually used verticality more while being 2D and grid-based. The Cube level in The Dark Heart of Uukrul is also an excellent example of how to do this.

 

[luj1]

Check out Quake map pack "Arcane Dimension"

has some dope design reminiscent of dungeon crawlers (but also verticality)

 

[Old Hans]

I've started to daydream about making a Wizardry-like and and just had an idea of adding greater verticallity to the level desing by building the level with the cubes (similar to Minecraft, but movement would still be grid based).
Imagine the possibilities of such a cool design. Ropes, ladders, rock climbing, teleports, jumping through the chasms, totally hidden places, ascending, descending and so on...

Would you like something like this in your Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler or would you be against such a design? Have you seen a Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler game like this before?

I think its just what the genre needs. im so tired of flat, 90-degree corner, 1981 graph paper maps

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Mmm... I remember Chaos Strikes Back to have a lot of verticality, it was basically a 3D map dungeon. You can exploit the 3D structure too, e.g. you can use pits in the floor to fall over monsters in the lower level and kill them easly. Ultima Underworld too has an interconnected 3D map, to some extent.

 

[Damned Registrations]

There are modern blobbers?

I wonder what a good, modern, decently high budget blobber (IE not something made by 2 guys or gimped for mobile/handheld) would even look like. Lots of assets for monsters, equipment, and various dungeon features I suppose. Maybe include multiple dungeons that start from level 1 and have various extra modes like randomizers, iron man or limited resources to add replay value and challenge. Plenty of races, classes and spells obviously. Some sort of tertiary progression system tied to something besides equipment or experience. Maybe throw in a little arena mode to fight against your friends for shits and giggles. Weird that isn't a feature in more rpgs, it's basically just a pokemon thing and that has been wildly successful.

 

[luj1]

high budget blobber

This is counter productive, please no

 

[Damned Registrations]

Decent budgets are fine as long as they're not wasted on retarded shit.

 

[Rincewind]

Mmm... I remember Chaos Strikes Back to have a lot of verticality, it was basically a 3D map dungeon. You can exploit the 3D structure too, e.g. you can use pits in the floor to fall over monsters in the lower level and kill them easly. Ultima Underworld too has an interconnected 3D map, to some extent.

Yeah, same deal in Eye of the Beholder 1 with the middle 3-4 levels forming an intricate, interlocked 3D dungeon with secret passageways. I love that!

 

[ShiningSoldier]

Decent budgets are fine as long as they're not wasted on retarded shit.

If you have to spend a lot of money on a game, you'd want to return money in sells. That means no interesting mechanics, no experiments - only modern crap "for wide audience".

 

[Damned Registrations]

Decent budgets are fine as long as they're not wasted on retarded shit.

If you have to spend a lot of money on a game, you'd want to return money in sells. That means no interesting mechanics, no experiments - only modern crap "for wide audience".

For really huge amounts sure. But you can do something like a Paradox game as long as you aren't blowing the budget on hiring celebrity actors for VA and mocap or doing inane graphics whore shit. Or blowing it all on advertising. Or hiring a fucking orchestra for your music. Or... you get the idea. Retarded shit.

300k would buy you an absolute fuckton of high quality 2D artwork for a first person blobber. I'm imagining something with the classic first person turn based grid style but some nicer graphics like what was showing up on late SNES/PSX era 2D games. Maybe give it that over the shoulder battle style PS4 had so people can watch their characters beat up zombies with their pretty golden swords or whatever. Make it into a series or do expansions and you can reuse a ton of assets.

The genre is so heavily focused on gameplay/programing over assets it baffles me that it died out. They're dirt cheap to make compared to something with a billion cutscenes or big 3D levels. These things should be as common as 4X games or twin stick shooters.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

There are modern blobbers?

Legend of Grimrock (2012) and its sequel LoG II (2014), with the latter even employing a bit of verticality in certain places, i.e. changes in elevation within the same level, rather than merely dropping into a pit that transfers the party to the level below, or ascending/descending stairs between levels.

 

[grimer]

I wonder what a good, modern, decently high budget blobber (IE not something made by 2 guys or gimped for mobile/handheld) would even look like. Lots of assets for monsters, equipment, and various dungeon features I suppose. Maybe include multiple dungeons that start from level 1 and have various extra modes like randomizers, iron man or limited resources to add replay value and challenge. Plenty of races, classes and spells obviously.

expansive 3d levels with verticality, lots of traps, puzzles and secrets, different tools to traverse such as items (torches, ropes), skill/attribute checks (climbing, swimming, traps, strength to move boulders) or magic (levitation, teleportation, passwall) where exploring the dungeon becomes integral to the party building process kinda like realms of arkania but less pedantic. more fleshed out mechanics such as deeper skill systems, add feats/perks, prestige classes and more unique class abilities especially for fighter classes (taunt, berserk, etc.). emphasize resource management by preventing/limiting resting in dungeons and running back to town but also have more classes that can heal the party so you're not always forced to bring a cleric (bard healing with songs or alchemist mixing potions from reagents found in the dungeon). bonus for a detailed overworld or a less derivative setting so you can have more interesting classes, dungeon themes, etc.

 

[Damned Registrations]

emphasize resource management by preventing/limiting resting in dungeons and running back to town but also have more classes that can heal the party so you're not always forced to bring a cleric (bard healing with songs or alchemist mixing potions from reagents found in the dungeon).

Ooh, I really like this idea. A blobber focused around the theme of survival would be really cool. Make the delves really long and have lots of utility classes and roles; foraging skills for food and supplies, longer term healing from things like regeneration spells or basic healing skills from herbalists and such. I think I'd make you rest in the dungeon a lot actually, but it wouldn't be the free full hp/mana restore it is in other games; you'd maybe recover a token amount boosted by some classes or skills, but it'd mainly be a necessity to avoid stamina/fatigue issues and be a requirement to prepare food and maintain equipment and such. Basically give another angle from which the party can experience danger from ambush or be stressed out trying to find a decent place to camp, with things like zones that are mildly poisonous, or oppressively hot or cold or even just loud or something that wouldn't affect combat or travel but prevent proper resting without having certain solutions like a druid in the party or specific gear, spells or skills.

 

[Kabas]

I wonder what a good, modern, decently high budget blobber (IE not something made by 2 guys or gimped for mobile/handheld) would even look like.

Decent budgets are fine as long as they're not wasted on retarded shit.

I can show you what a low budget 3d blobber made by a dev who uses 3D assets creatively would look like.

 

[Kabas]

On a more serious note you should check out Monsters of Mican. While levels themselves don't often feature verticality you do get an access to spells that let you jump very high or conjure a pillar beneath your party that is high enough to be unreachable by most melee enemies.
Dev is currently working on expansions to the base game/sequel.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Have you seen a Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler game like this before?

yeah, Demise did this back in 1999

 

[luj1]

Have you seen a Wizardry-like / dungeon crawler game like this before?

yeah, Demise did this back in 1999

Is it available for purchase anywhere? Looks awesome, a bit like Wiz 8 or Wizards & Warriors

 

[JarlFrank]

Blobbers with verticality I'm aware of:

Legend of Grimrock 2 - it has the classic grid-based levels but there's seamless verticality with ladders and teleporters and falling down to a lower level if you step on a floorless tile. Some of Grimrock 2's maps are really good with verticality, and often it's not strictly a thing of having multiple floors to a dungeon: sometimes there's, for example, a pit in the middle of a room which is one level lower than the rest of the room. It works really well.

Most blobbers with verticality don't use grids, but have free movement.
Examples:
Wizardry 8, Wizards & Warriors, Frayed Knights.

Also, I'm glad I managed to show at least one Codexer the glory of Monsters of Mican Kabas

Generally it's easier to do verticality without a grid, but Grimrock 2 shows that even with a grid it's very much possible and vastly improves the dungeon design.

 

[luj1]

You guys should try The Master Quest

https://www.nexusmods.com/grimrock/mods/239

Easily better than the base game

 

[Gregz]

'Verticality' is a bad idea for RPGs. I've never seen it implemented in a way that improved fun.

 

[Bad Sector]

Verticality can be neat in a blobber but only as long as it doesn't make the game a platformer - i.e. it is used to add a third dimension (so to speak) to exploration / puzzles. I used to not think much about it (sometimes even thinking that all verticality is an improvement) but in recent years i've becoming more wary of things like jumping puzzles outside of realtime ARPGs, especially RPGs with an abstracted party like blobbers. And even then, sometimes it feel superfluous.

For example i do not think that (all else ignored) Dragon Age: Inquisition having jumping was an improvement over Dragon Age: Origins (i mention this because i was playing DAO recently and while i haven't played DAI in years, i remember being able to jump on rooftops near the start of the game and thinking how pointless it was).

 

[Damned Registrations]

doesn't make the game a platformer

I think platformers get maligned a bit much for the tendency of developers that make them to make the platforming irritatingly finnicky and precise. You can do a lot of cool stuff with platforming exploration in conjunction with upgrades like sprinting, jump enhancements, gliding, wall clinging/jumping, sliding/crouching, and so forth without making it challenging to execute. It's just a matter of making those upgrades substantial enough to make a clear delineation between a jump or whatever that's impossible without but easy with a given upgrade. I think Hollow Knight did a pretty good job of that for general exploration. Charge up moves work well for this also; like when you charge up the spindash in a sonic game or the jump in mario bros 2. It's generally only when you're asked to jump with precise timing while moving towards the edge of a cliff that shit gets annoying.

Platforming is best used as a tool to hide things; treasures, alternate routes, enemy ambushes or ways to avoid them, traps and ways to shut them off. All of this stuff can be really fun if you hide it in the right spot and make the player think about his surroundings more.