Information Vote on how Chris Avellone will LP Arcanum!

[Excidium]

That's what happens when you tell a dwarf to design firefighting equipment.

 

[Hormalakh]

I wonder why they never burn their beards.

 

[Warmark]

I wonder why they never burn their beards.

Asbestos treated beards, that's why you don't see many Dwarves around these days.

 

[almondblight]

So right now the Codex (excluding the 3D haters at least) is fairly optimistic about W2, but wary of PE. Is that actually justified? Is it a fair reflection of how these two games really are?

Eh, don't confuse "The Codex" with the 15 - 20 people out of 11k members that post in every single thread. The best way to know what people think is to start a poll. Remember when VD started a poll when he got worried that everyone seemed to hate AoD, and it turned out that ~2/3's of the members liked the game, and only ~3% disliked it?

 

[Moribund]

Which are also the only 15-20 people who actually read up on them both. I do think it's a fair characterization. I've gone from slightly cynical/apathetic to LOL on PE. On WL 2 I've gone from cautiously optimistic to holy crap it's really going to happen, and the more I hear from Fargo the more he sounds like he feels just like me. Whereas with Sawyer and sometimes even MCA I often think what the fuck am I even reading?

There's no place for this illogical fanboy bullshit. Different strokes for different folks, and if you turn out to be right then you have bragging rights. If you can't hear to stand the completely obvious reaction to the dumb stuff PE folk say then you need to get off the internet, Infinitroll.

 

[Lord Andre]

Playing a gunslinger ain't so bad in Arcanum IF you know how to avoid its pitfalls. For a first play-through though...some bad decisions can make your game a lot less fun.

What I never understood was why did the special/found/bought gun schematics suck utter balls. There isn't a single one that compares to the normal learned schematics. It boggles the mind how those special guns were balanced. And they all had godly requirements to make them. On the other hand, the pyro axe aka "the best fucking melee weapon in the game" is so easy to make that a mage could do it with a few manuals. I don't care how rushed the game was there's no excuse for not balancing a few numbers when they a child could spot the discrepency. Someone was just plain incompetent.

Anyway here is how you grapple a centaur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyo4itn-y8w

Tim Cain feel free to take notes.

 

[Hormalakh]

Playing a gunslinger ain't so bad in Arcanum IF you know how to avoid its pitfalls. For a first play-through though...some bad decisions can make your game a lot less fun.

What I never understood was why did the special/found/bought gun schematics suck utter balls. There isn't a single one that compares to the normal learned schematics. It boggles the mind how those special guns were balanced. And they all had godly requirements to make them. On the other hand, the pyro axe aka "the best fucking melee weapon in the game" is so easy to make that a mage could do it with a few manuals. I don't care how rushed the game was there's no excuse for not balancing a few numbers when they a child could spot the discrepency. Someone was just plain incompetent.

Anyway here is how you grapple a centaur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyo4itn-y8w

Tim Cain feel free to take notes.

That's just a bull. Where's that neanderthal? Cleve, upload a video on how you grapple a real centaur.

Also end-game gun schematic that you find in the Vendigroth wastes is pretty much the best gun in the game. I think it's got better stats than the ax.

Edit: I stand corrected Droch's Warbringer is not better than the pyrotechnic ax. That's crazy...

 

[tuluse]

But some are more open than others, and so the conversation we're having loses its proportion. I promise you that there are a million things that have been cut from Wasteland 2 that we would could have had 500 page rage-filled threads about. But we don't know about them.

So right now the Codex (excluding the 3D haters at least) is fairly optimistic about W2, but wary of PE. Is that actually justified? Is it a fair reflection of how these two games really are?

W2 is turn based and you make a party during character creation. Either one of those would make people more optimistic around there parts. Both is basically tugging the heart strings of the codex.

 

[St. Toxic]

Grappling still has unique animation requirements even when you limit it to humanoids only. That is what Tim was saying.

And how many weapon attacks are we going to have? Do we really need spears when fewer people would utilize them than they would grappling had it been implented? Are great-swords going to be handled by a different animation than short-swords? Are there going to be 0 context-sensitive unique animations?

Non humanoids make it worse but the problem is already present. You are making unique animations for one special attack, both the attacker and defender animations. And it's not even very similar to any of the animations that are already in the game so you can't just modify an existing one.

It's like an attack. You can use an attack animation.

Why is grappling so important that other abilities with less labor intensive animation requirements can't take it's place? What is the reason the you SIMPLY MUST have grappling instead of other abilities, that don't have unique animation requirements, that are able to give you the same tactical options? Or a different set of tactical options instead even?

Because it doesn't have intensive animation requirements. It just really doesn't. It's a cheap implementation to make.

I sure don't see one and the only one offered so far is how it helps the realism and thus the verisimilitude. Even though it's lack has never been a problem in just about all the other CRPGs that don't implement it. I'm not aware of any that implement it but it's possible there are a few that do.

Just wait until a feature you like gets shitcanned with a bad excuse, then we can trade "I don't see a problem"s.

The animation requirements for grappling is more than "a few frames of animation."

It really isn't. I could do some grappling animations right now, they'd be done in no-time.

I've already stated why obsidian can't just pop some text or an icon and call it a day. Because it looks bad when everything else is animated and Obsidian has enough money and experience to do it right.

Maybe they shouldn't animate everything else? Or leave something else static and animate grappling?

And they are trying to make a game that looks good. You don't actually gain much by having grapple instead of some other abilities that do similar things anyway.

You mean we gain more from eye-candy? Please.

You aren't getting a better combat system out of it. All you are really gaining is that some anal people are satisfied that their characters are able to grab other characters like they feel they realistically should be able to do.

But are we getting a better combat system because of graphics? The answer is no.

Why do characters not ride horses when travelling? If they are riding horses when traveling why are they dismounting before they get in fights when travelling? Or why not get anal about something else that doesn't mesh with your idea of what someone should be able to realistically do? My point with that statement was that other things fall within the same category of being left out because of resource limitations, largely art and animation, so why is grappling so important that the explanation of "we decided that implementing that would require to many unique resources" unacceptable?

Fuck horses, it's not like everyone rode everywhere in the middle-ages either. This isn't the wild west, people had to walk for months when traveling.

 

[Twinkle]

He should have Tim Cain create him a custom background...

And name his player character Drog.

 

[St. Toxic]

So I'm really not getting where you are coming from that you just need to make a single simple attack animation in order to animate grappling.

Well, it's often treated as a normal attack in pnp. The consequences of the attack are what make it interesting, like damage over time, inability to move, attack debuffs and the like. That's certainly stuff you wouldn't need to animate for it to make sense, it's all mechanical. What you need is a set of rig animations that represent the act of grappling -- no hugging and rolling around on the ground, which for a top-down camera view might give people the wrong idea of what's going on anyway, but something along the lines of the use/steal animation from Fallout that cuts off half-way could work quite well.

A normal attack with the swing stopping half-way would also do the trick; it wouldn't look particularly weird, as long as the statuses for each character are clearly represented. For the character that's being grappled, any stunned animation would be fine, though if they don't have stuns because of time constraints an idle animation replacing combat stance would probably work to represent the status as well, though it'd certainly make the game look more Russian. They'll probably add stupid shit like people running around on fire, frozen in a block of ice or sizzling in acid, which isn't a matter of visual representation but mere eye candy, unless there are people out there who don't know what fire is.

And if every combat action is having an on screen animation, as seems to be the goal for PE, you also need to animate the attacks that the combatants are doing while in the grappled state.

And if the goal was having every dialog voiced? No, look, we're not cutting down on the amount or quality of our writing, the scope of our story or the amount of interesting characters, by constraining ourselves to 4 voice actors and getting everything recorded and set in stone by Thursday. This is just part of our artistic vision, where the game delivers an immersive and cinematic experience that really makes you feel like you're a part of the world. Of course, we won't be doing a whole lot of meaningful dialog options, as that won't be in the voice acting budget, but we'll do something else that's just as good -- maybe a diplomacy mini-game.

And that's all assuming you are taking the less than optimal design choice of only allowing grappling to occur between two humanoid opponents of roughly the same size.

Because people seriously expect to wrestle and lock down an ooze or a dragon. It's not less than optimal, this is the very definition of optimal; we're optimizing a combat-tactic to work in a way that not only makes logical sense but limits the amount of work needed for proper implementation. You're not going to catch a pixie or wrestle with a midget a third your size, and you're not going to wrestle against a giant's big toe or dislodge an elemental being's shoulder.

Edit: Almost forgot to mention that Grappling is also going to have unique UI requirements for how you command your character while he is in the grapple. You could do it in a way that isn't too much additional work but it's still there.

Well, obviously the entire UI would need to be reworked if grappling is in the game. The minimap would have to get folded at the edges, the inventory screen changes to a backpack in disarray and all the commands and icons will need a *shake* effect making them harder to select to represent the ongoing struggle. Of course, the commands themselves and the actions available to the character as he's being grappled will need unique names, and the spell system will need to be reworked to facilitate casting from a grappled state, adding entire schools of spells that are specifically designed for when you're being grappled (with their own particle effects don't forget). We'll also need to add twice as many NPC characters, so that they can come in during combat and describe the hot grappling action that's going on.

Lastly, for the sake of balance they'll have no choice other than to add grappling as a viable means of beating the endgame, which means big bad has to be a humanoid. The way I see it, if your main character is heavily invested in grappling you'll enter a grappling duel with big bad that consists of quick-time events during a 45 minute long, drawn-out custom ground-roll animation (preferably mocapped) at the edge of a cliff. Then, depending on whether you gave the blind boy a gold piece or grappled him you'll either get the good ending, where you reconcile your differences with big bad and engage in sloppy gay sex (cgi ofc), or the bad ending, where both of you fall over the cliff, leaving the supporting cast wondering if there's an Eternity 2 on the horizon.

 

[CappenVarra]

I'm a little perplexed here but we might not be on the same page if you think making a single attack animation is all the work that is involved in animating grappling. Grappling is wrestling. Grabbing a hold and starting hand to hand combat where both combatants are in nearly constant physical contact with each other, and it almost always goes to the ground. So you need animations for the two combatants struggling with each other while they are in the grappled state. And you need animations for combatants leaving the grappling state. And if every combat action is having an on screen animation, as seems to be the goal for PE, you also need to animate the attacks that the combatants are doing while in the grappled state. So even assuming that you are trying to do the animating in the way that involves the least work for animators that is still at least 4 animations, also assuming you just mirror animations for both combatants. That's also assuming you are animating it in a way that you are able to use existing animations for a lot of things.

Can't they just reuse the sex animations?

 

[Murk]

Goddamn Toxic you almost had me.

 

[Moribund]

You're not going to catch a pixie or wrestle with a midget a third your size, and you're not going to wrestle against a giant's big toe or dislodge an elemental being's shoulder.

There's rules for just that. It makes perfect sense, pick up a midget and bash it against a tree. Catch a pixie in your hand and either crush it or force you to tell where its lucky charms are.

You might not grapple a dragon but your grapple ability will help you keep from being the one picked up and crushed like a pixie. Dragons can grapple you and you don't want one to grapple your mage.

Or anyone to grapple your mage for that matter. Grapple is one of the biggest checks to the retards who get a party of all mages and cast nothing but fireball. Oops the kobolds went first this round, you = dead, and from level level bitch monsters to boot. Oh the humiliation.

 

[Lord Andre]

Grappling is bear-hugging a weaker opponent thus immobilizing him and yourself. Great for stopping a bad ass wizard from casting nukes or for stopping a guard from triggering an alarm button or an archer from shooting save-or-die magic arrows etc. The greatest tactical benefit that it adds is that monsters can do it to you and they usually have better strength. Thus a wizard might want to take a perk in casting while standing still since even a low level orc can take him out of combat in this manner. It adds depth to combat, something Tim Cain should be able to understand.

 

[St. Toxic]

There's rules for just that. It makes perfect sense, pick up a midget and bash it against a tree. Catch a pixie in your hand and either crush it or force you to tell where its lucky charms are.

Well, sure, technically you could do that. But if the rules state that anything the size of a child is too nimble to be grappled, it wouldn't bug me half as much as a rule saying grappling is too complex for the animation department to even consider putting it in. At least the former seems sort of legit, even if perhaps a bit simplified.

You might not grapple a dragon but your grapple ability will help you keep from being the one picked up and crushed like a pixie. Dragons can grapple you and you don't want one to grapple your mage.

That one is bullshit. You're not going to out-grapple a dragon, no matter what. You might dodge or block his attempt to grab you, but you certainly aren't going to out-grab a giant hand. If a dragon wants to grab your mages, who probably aren't wrestling champions anyhow, reposition them to someplace where they're out of reach.

Also, no mention of grappling an ooze?

EDIT: In my humble opinion, I also think grappling would work best as an active combat ability without any anti-grappling defensive benefits. I don't think it deserves to be its own skill, rather a simple way to immobilize an opponent, potentially at the cost of your own safety (getting stabbed in the gut repeatedly with daggers) or adding a general defensive bonus vs. the particular character who's being grappled (large weapons that require whole body to maximize damage). There's a lot of other stuff that can easily be added to it, like damage over time scaling with unarmed combat for the duration of the grab, tripping, lower defensive value (the rest of your party just mutilating the poor defenseless bastard) as compensation for rendering one of your units virtually unusable and vulnerable during the operation, as it won't be doing enormous damage by itself and if you get flanked and backstabbed that could well be it.

 

[Marsal]

You might not grapple a dragon but your grapple ability will help you keep from being the one picked up and crushed like a pixie. Dragons can grapple you and you don't want one to grapple your mage.

That one is bullshit. You're not going to out-grapple a dragon, no matter what. You might dodge or block his attempt to grab you, but you certainly aren't going to out-grab a giant hand. If a dragon wants to grab your mages, who probably aren't wrestling champions anyhow, reposition them to someplace where they're out of reach.

This is why we can't have nice things. I'm starting to understand why the developers like us only when they ask for money.

Let me repeat the jew's question. Why is there no grappling in AoD, Vault Dweller? It would fit in perfectly with all enemies being human.

 

[Warmark]

I just realized I'm all excited about his LP of Arcanum and just installed my GOG version with all the mods to replay as a magick character this time around and I'm not getting anything close to 4 million for this.
Maybe he should be playing one of his own games, something like Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader and let him really earn the money.

 

[Excidium]

Probably because it's a single character game, grapple would have p. limited uses as you're usually fighting at a numeric disadvantage in AoD.

The solution is of course to make AoD party-based first and then add grapple.

 

[Marsal]

Probably because it's a single character game, grapple would have p. limited uses as you're usually fighting at a numeric disadvantage in AoD.

The solution is of course to make AoD party-based first and then add grapple.

I'm just trolling, bro. We all know grappling is the only thing missing and would make combat in AoD instantly great. Same goes for PE. And any other game.

 

[Excidium]

Well...there's disarming too...

 

[Harold]

I don't care how he plays it as long as he makes sure to use Drog's patch the modesty mod.

 

[Moribund]

ooze - there are rules here, too. You can't do it. If you force the issue you will be dead/diseased/whatever, depending on the ooze. And there's no reason you can't program this, too.

dragon - it totally makes sense. First off immobilizing a target is harder than just grappling, but you could indeed rush the dragon and grapple around its neck or leg but it would have little effect. Which totally makes sense. You could also get grappled by a dragon and break free. It's not like a dragon's ARMS have godlike strength. They have a strength rating and if you are strong enough you could break free. So your 8 strength mage is toast but a 20 strength dwarven mage with a girdle of giant strength might break free. If you had a truly herculean character and cast shrink and weaken on the dragon he could immobilize it, too, but that would take unbelievable amount of strength and planning.

Need to read up, there's rules for every stupid thing you can imagine in DnD, and by and large they make sense.

animation - Computers can't do everything or anyway not everything is too easy. Pretty sure for centaur you'd just need animation of getting kicked in the head as they have reach and multiple attacks, size advantage and good strength. But then tentacles and giant frogs and grappling dragon's neck and rock elementals etc. it really adds up and you have to ask how much it makes sense. Since those are all vaguely ridiculous things to try anyway just do the animations for grappling mages/clerics and only allow that and be done with it.

 

[St. Toxic]

You're in luck then. Because what you consider to be grappling may very well be in the game. I'm almost certain there will be special abilities to trip, immobilize, stun, and put debuffs on opponents. It's even possible they might use a grabbing animation and be called something like grab. Because all you described is a grab attack. When Tim Cain said that they weren't adding grappling he was talking about actual grappling mechanics, like in D&D 3.5. Where grappling is a separate form of melee combat where characters are limited to unarmed or small weapons, are limited to fighting opponents in the grapple with you, can do stuff like pin opponents, choke them, and if your skill/strength is high enough compared to theirs actually pick them up and carry them off. That is what is not being added because of the animations. Your grab attack has a decent chance of being in PE.

Apart from carrying characters off (what?) I fail to see the distinction. (Though, they could include that one easy without any animation; just turn the character into an inventory item for a limited amount of time) You grab a character and then you're fighting 1-on-1 until he breaks free.

Sure animation works as a limiting factor for how many combat actions there can be with unique animations. But they will still be able to put together a combat system with plenty of depth and plenty of special abilities and effects. So it isn't a limit that is going to drop the complexity of the combat system to an unacceptable level. It isn't really going to limit them to making the combat any less deep than they were already planning to make it at all. If the combat isn't good in PE it is going to be because they did a bad job designing it, not that they couldn't include certain attack types due to animation limits. So it isn't at all like full voice over which is a limitation that would actually drop the quantity and complexity of dialog in the game.

But it's still the same excuse.

What is unreasonable about a person being able to squirm out of a dragon's grip? It should be difficult of course but fighting a dragon in general should be difficult. If you take a step back and think about it fighting a creature like a dragon is what is bullshit. Trying to stab a creature more than 50 feet tall should only end in you getting squashed. But we allow that highly trained warriors in our games can cause them damage, survive blows from them, and even slay them. So why shouldn't a wrestling master be able to wriggle out of a dragon's grip?

It wouldn't be wriggling as much as trying to put the dragon into a submissive position and turn the grab against him, which I think is bullshit. What, you're going to choke the dragon? Pin a wing down and make him cry uncle? Wriggling is just nimbleness, agility.

 

[Gondolin]

If a dragon grabbed a mage, could it still avoid a touch attack or would it be an automatic hit?