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Turn-Based Tactics Warbanners - turn-based tactics from the developers of Drums of War

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
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Dumbasses not understanding that 80%!= 4 out 5 are to be ignored where rng is concerned
"B-but its big number and I deserve that reward!!!"
They'll also complain if CtH is anything under 75%. Happened in this very thread.
 

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
129
I think that few people will argue that the rando in tactical games is evil. And we must fight it. Discover secret - in many games the rand is dishonest. The developers just imitate an honest random.

On the gog we plan to get out. But while the store administration did not approve the game.
 

Lagi

Savant
Joined
Jul 19, 2015
Messages
726
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Desert
thanks to provided math Circuit;
i think that to soften the frustration, better would be to implement "secret"+5% if you miss
85% miss
85% [its now 90%] = miss
85 [95%] = hit miss
fuck it
85 [100%] = hit , suck my balls RNG gods!

or it can be even openly calculated - why do we want to treat players as retards? [they are retards, if they complain, but the point is to gain their sympathy]

should it work for lowering hit% after successful attack? dont think so.
 

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
129
Try a new random. If you want to return to an honest random, I will add this opportunity. Thank you!
 

Citizen

Guest
Try a new random. If you want to return to an honest random, I will add this opportunity. Thank you!

Including both systems seems like a nice solution, but it would be hard to make battles equally challenging for both of them.
 

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
129
I want the game to please everybody. Within a few days I will add the possibility of choosing a random from 3 variants - 1d100, 5d20 or "tokens".

Vlad_Konung how easy/feasible it will be to add character creation to your next game, or in the future?
I do not know. The architecture of the new game will be the possibility of modifications. For example, add new maps, change the characteristics of units. I do not know about adding new units. I have no idea how to do it. How to write them into the game?
 

Citizen

Guest
1d100, 5d20 or "tokens"

Using multiple dice rolls for CtH calculation is really unintuitive. The distribution is binomial, not linear as with just one die. How are you going to implement it?

Multiple dice rolls work nice for damage calculation (as in DnD), because the variance is lower and they give more constant values. But they are never used for 'hit rolls'.

The rolls in the middle of the binomial spike are much more probable than the ones on the both ends. So if you just compare CtH (in percents) with a roll value, actual chance to hit will be much higher if your initial CtH is bigger than 50%

(Actual chance to hit is proportional to the area of the green zone)

VkNYmOl.png


And much lower if your initial CtH < 50%

JzHXOCu.png


(just sample illustrations, axis don't mean anything. I'll add proper graphs later, maybe.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
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Messages
129
You're right. But we have a game, not a math lesson. I played at least 7 hours in each case. My impressions:
1d100 - incorrect statistics are regularly observed. Yes. in general, the data are equalized, but the sediment remains.
5d20 - the extreme results are minimized. Data looks more logical and fair.
Tokens - less excitement, but no claim to Rand. Everything is as it should be ))).
Let everyone choose what he likes.
 

Mustawd

Guest
That is how Firaxis designed XCOM 2012. On every difficulty setting other than the highest one, there are bonuses to accuracy after missed shots that are invisible to the player

Heh. Funny enough, I just started my second XCOM playthrough on Classic difficulty (first playthrough was Normal) and noticed this within the first couple of missions. Good to know it wasn’t just my imagination.



Why? Because the average person has a poor grasp of conventional probability and statistics; We did not evolve to be frequentists. See Gambler's Fallacy.

I find that games that show the die roll results seem fairer than whennit happens behind the scenes.
 

Nathaniel3W

Rockwell Studios
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I wish I could remember the source. I'm pretty sure it was someone's presentation at GDC a year or five ago. Someone from Firaxis was talking about how a tester or someone insisted that the RNG was broken because he missed a 95% shot two or three times in a row. Missing a 95% shot 3 times in a row is a 1/8000 chance, but based on how many rounds of XCOM the testers were playing, they should have seen that happen pretty regularly. Maybe in a purely theoretical sense, you might be able to accept that a 1/8000 event actually does happen once in a while. But we refuse to accept that it can happen to us in a game of XCOM.

In my own game I'm learning that I need to fudge the rules just a little bit in order to make the game seem more fun and fair. In testing out my game recently, I sent my dudes into a fight, and just because of bad luck, my squad leader got targeted by six enemies in a row. She died, and because she was a plot-central character, that was Game Over. It was random, and therefore fair. But it certainly didn't feel fair at the time.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you go with 5 D20, you cannot call these rolls percentages:
It would be very missleading that you have 0.02% chance to hit a target when the game says 10%
Also most attacks that gets much below 50% will virtually never hit.
It is not a problem in itself (actually, I like these systems better than flat percentages), but it will completely wreck the balance of the game if a 10% chance to hit becomes 0.
As much as I dislike the dice nudging in NuXCOM, I think it is a better alternative, unless you are ready to go through different stats for different systems (which will be horrible to maintain).

A more elegant option is the reroll system of Blood Bowl (you have rerolls, that are a team or individual power, that can be used to reroll a dice whenever you want. team rerolls can be used for anyone, but are in limited number, while individual rerolls apply to a given skill, but are free).

btw, I wrote a post here about random systems on my blog.

I want the game to please everybody. Within a few days I will add the possibility of choosing a random from 3 variants - 1d100, 5d20 or "tokens".


I do not know. The architecture of the new game will be the possibility of modifications. For example, add new maps, change the characteristics of units. I do not know about adding new units. I have no idea how to do it. How to write them into the game?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
2,930
Yes, right. Do not worry! You can be sure of the result only for extreme values - 10% or 90-95%. In all other cases, you will simply know that Random does not play against you. We received a lot of negative reviews because of an honest randomization. So I decided to take this radical decision and close the question.
Strange decision, honestly. It's still random enough to irritate "random haters", and in situations, where you get 10% hitchance for the few remaining attacks, it will irritate them even more. If the criticism is coming from people posting about "missing 3 times with 85% hit chance is UNREALISTIC i hate random so much wtf", just ignore it. Warbanners is really nice as it is, and i'm afraid the mechanic changes might ruin the almost perfect balance between fun and challenge that you achieved.

Also, do you still plan gog.com release?

agree 100%, for some reason this random hater idiots are becoming more and more common. I think it has something to do with the fact less and less people have played actual tabletop games or something. They also often seem to believe that random dice mechanic exists only due to olden days not having enough awesome computers and that since we now have awesome computers everything should be determined via a totally granular and 'realistic' simulation. In many respects it is the same argument made by anti-turn based morons.

The type who irritate me even more are the ones who believe that in turn based games they should never miss because the enemy is 'just standing still and not moving' and that because of this missing is unrealistic since anybody can hit somebody just standing still in one spot. They seem to completely misunderstand what is being simulated and can only understand the game from a completely literal interpretation of the games graphics. These people are fucking dumb and they are loud and demanding as hell.
 

Citizen

Guest
The type who irritate me even more are the ones who believe that in turn based games they should never miss because the enemy is 'just standing still and not moving'

People who can't understand that the games are abstract systems, and the only purpose of graphics is to make them look beautiful, not to make them 'realistic', should just go outside and carry on with their realistic life simulation. I want to play proper games, not run around doing some 'realistic' shit in first-person view.
 

Brancaleone

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Apr 28, 2015
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Norcia
The type who irritate me even more are the ones who believe that in turn based games they should never miss because the enemy is 'just standing still and not moving'

People who can't understand that the games are abstract systems, and the only purpose of graphics is to make them look beautiful, not to make them 'realistic', should just go outside and carry on with their realistic life simulation.
That's because most of them confuse 'realism' with internal consistency.
 

Citizen

Guest
Vlad_Konung, so what about the 5d20 dice? I was toying with R this evening and draw some diagrams to prove mine and Galdred's point of view.

Using 5d20 instead of 1d100 would just confuse people. The CtH in percents that they will see in game wouldn't mean anything.

The actual chance of scoring 'p' points by 'n' throws of the 's'-sided die is:

G6oEqRz.gif


This is a 1d100 diagram, X is the score, Y is the probability. Everything is equal, just as expected.

IIlu8bt.png


And here is the 'Chance-To-Hit' diagram. (Just a sum of probabilities of scoring a number lower or equal to X) X is the score, Y is the CtH.

BKLBCMy.png


It's linear, and you can see, that the actual CtH (Y axis) equals the 'CtH' displayed to the player (X axis).

Here is the 5d20 diagram:

Cx10nr3.png


Looks binomial-ish. Again, X is the score, Y is the probability.

And here is the 'Chance-to-hit' for the 5d20: (sum of the probabilities of scoring the number lower or equal to X)

M8uKAK4.png


As you can see, the ACTUAL CtH (Y axis) is not equal to the 'CtH' visible to player (X axis).

Players with 'CtH' of 30% in reality will have the CtH of 4,4% ! And players with 'CtH' of 75% will actually have a 99,36% CtH !

So, people with 'CtH' lower than 25% will almost never hit, and people with 'CtH' bigger than 75% will never miss. It's still random, even more random than 1d100, but now it's also confusing as hell. The only solution I can think of is to display ACTUAL CtH, calculated with the above formula, but it would still be random, just with different chances to hit.
 

Princess Rage

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Castle Rage
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?
 

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
129
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?


It is necessary to choose the kind of match where the characteristics of Roderick are used, which the player has improved as much as possible. For example, if the player has increased the Accuracy most, choose the throwing of the daggers.
 

Citizen

Guest
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?


It is necessary to choose the kind of match where the characteristics of Roderick are used, which the player has improved as much as possible. For example, if the player has increased the Accuracy most, choose the throwing of the daggers.

So there's no skillcheck? Like '>N accuracy to pass'? You just need to choose the option for the most developed stat?
 

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
129
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?


It is necessary to choose the kind of match where the characteristics of Roderick are used, which the player has improved as much as possible. For example, if the player has increased the Accuracy most, choose the throwing of the daggers.

So there's no skillcheck? Like '>N accuracy to pass'? You just need to choose the option for the most developed stat?

It is the same )))
 

Citizen

Guest
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?


It is necessary to choose the kind of match where the characteristics of Roderick are used, which the player has improved as much as possible. For example, if the player has increased the Accuracy most, choose the throwing of the daggers.

So there's no skillcheck? Like '>N accuracy to pass'? You just need to choose the option for the most developed stat?

It is the same )))

No, I mean, that to pass a skillcheck you just need to choose YOUR most developed stat? So someone with 6 Acc 4 Str will pass it by choosing Accuracy option, but someone with 6 Acc 7 Str will fail it by choosing the Accuracy option, because Accuracy is not his most developed stat? (and the only way for him to pass is to pick Str option)
 

Princess Rage

Novice
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Feb 5, 2012
Messages
32
Location
Castle Rage
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?


It is necessary to choose the kind of match where the characteristics of Roderick are used, which the player has improved as much as possible. For example, if the player has increased the Accuracy most, choose the throwing of the daggers.

So there's no skillcheck? Like '>N accuracy to pass'? You just need to choose the option for the most developed stat?

It is the same )))

No, I mean, that to pass a skillcheck you just need to choose YOUR most developed stat? So someone with 6 Acc 4 Str will pass it by choosing Accuracy option, but someone with 6 Acc 7 Str will fail it by choosing the Accuracy option, because Accuracy is not his most developed stat? (and the only way for him to pass is to pick Str option)


I tried all three options so it definitely isn't the case that choosing whichever of the 3 stats is your highest (assuming each check corresponds to a single different stat) results in success. It could be you have to choose the best of ALL your stats and that for me that stat simply wasn't among the stats for the options, but that doesn't seem terribly likely. It seems more likely that you just have to pass a ">N" skill check on a certain stat for each option. I played without the arena and Roderick ended the whole campaign around level 8 so I'm wondering if on nightmare (as far as I know nightmare is identical to hard except for there being no resurrection) it's even feasible to have any of the stat requirements by the time the doppelganger bit comes up without grinding the arena (which I don't want to do since that would reduce the challenge).

To be honest it would be nice to just know the exact numbers. If they're too high I'll just forget about it and go on with the game but depending on what they are I might go for them even if it means gimping Roderick a bit (which would be a bit sad since he's the leader but oh well). I'm guessing success just means:
Roderick getting the info without his "doppelganger" getting his blood.
 

Vlad_Konung

Crasleen Games
Developer
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
129
Borrowed my bro's account to post:

I finished the game on the hardest (should've played nightmare since I never used the resurrect option and my heroes were never KO'd, I guess) using reloads. I'm thinking about playing through again on nightmare without reloads but I want Roderick to defeat his doppelganger this time. What are the requirements to pass the "skill checks" for the three options (fighting, darts, drinking) so that Roderick beats his doppelganger?


It is necessary to choose the kind of match where the characteristics of Roderick are used, which the player has improved as much as possible. For example, if the player has increased the Accuracy most, choose the throwing of the daggers.

So there's no skillcheck? Like '>N accuracy to pass'? You just need to choose the option for the most developed stat?

It is the same )))

No, I mean, that to pass a skillcheck you just need to choose YOUR most developed stat? So someone with 6 Acc 4 Str will pass it by choosing Accuracy option, but someone with 6 Acc 7 Str will fail it by choosing the Accuracy option, because Accuracy is not his most developed stat? (and the only way for him to pass is to pick Str option)


I tried all three options so it definitely isn't the case that choosing whichever of the 3 stats is your highest (assuming each check corresponds to a single different stat) results in success. It could be you have to choose the best of ALL your stats and that for me that stat simply wasn't among the stats for the options, but that doesn't seem terribly likely. It seems more likely that you just have to pass a ">N" skill check on a certain stat for each option. I played without the arena and Roderick ended the whole campaign around level 8 so I'm wondering if on nightmare (as far as I know nightmare is identical to hard except for there being no resurrection) it's even feasible to have any of the stat requirements by the time the doppelganger bit comes up without grinding the arena (which I don't want to do since that would reduce the challenge).

To be honest it would be nice to just know the exact numbers. If they're too high I'll just forget about it and go on with the game but depending on what they are I might go for them even if it means gimping Roderick a bit (which would be a bit sad since he's the leader but oh well). I'm guessing success just means:
Roderick getting the info without his "doppelganger" getting his blood.

Strenght >=7
or
Stamina >=24
or
Accuracy >=8
 

Princess Rage

Novice
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
32
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You have my appreciation. Very nice of you. This much communication with a game's developer is a rare delight, it seems to me.
 

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