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Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters - Grey Knights turn-based tactical RPG

Beowulf

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What's the verdict on this one? Worth the money? Any replay value? Usually I prefer to take the try-before-I-buy approach, but since this one is Denuvo'd, CODEX quit the scene and the people in-the-know aren't being very vocal about Denuvo-cracking I doubt that it is gonna be possible anytime soon. I watched a little bit of footage and it looks nice and meaty, but is there any real tactical challenge to it or is it pretty easy to blitz through most of it? Steam reviews look positive, but Steam reviewers also typically have a sub 40 IQ and spend most of their money on "one-handed" Visual Novels. Also, heard the DLC is absolute shit and basically just a pay-to-win addition.

I'd say - wait for sale. It's not bad, but it gets repetitive and uses similar action point system to nu-Xcom games (but you can abuse it here to make your characters combo their actions to gain more AP per turn), as well as similar pod system. I'm not really a fan of those two mechanics.
Also - it gets repetitive. Too repetitive for me actually, so I shelved it. Most of the fights devolved to me performing an alpha strike in order to get rid of the enemies in one turn, before they can even act (on normal diff though, so YMMW).
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What's the verdict on this one? Worth the money? Any replay value? Usually I prefer to take the try-before-I-buy approach, but since this one is Denuvo'd, CODEX quit the scene and the people in-the-know aren't being very vocal about Denuvo-cracking I doubt that it is gonna be possible anytime soon. I watched a little bit of footage and it looks nice and meaty, but is there any real tactical challenge to it or is it pretty easy to blitz through most of it? Steam reviews look positive, but Steam reviewers also typically have a sub 40 IQ and spend most of their money on "one-handed" Visual Novels. Also, heard the DLC is absolute shit and basically just a pay-to-win addition.

I'd say - wait for sale. It's not bad, but it gets repetitive and uses similar action point system to nu-Xcom games (but you can abuse it here to make your characters combo their actions to gain more AP per turn), as well as similar pod system. I'm not really a fan of those two mechanics.
Also - it gets repetitive. Too repetitive for me actually, so I shelved it. Most of the fights devolved to me performing an alpha strike in order to get rid of the enemies in one turn, before they can even act (on normal diff though, so YMMW).
yes, I mostly agree with Beowulf. I like the action system in use. It is more liberal than NuXCOM when it comes to actions. It is closer to Gears Tactics. But it has the same flaw of having very little mission variety. It also becomes easy too early (earlier than in NuXCOM for sure).

I showed the game to a friend yesterday (2/3rd in the game or so), and he joked about opponents never getting to act (at the highest difficulty level). I'm usually not a fan of just adding more opponents, but I think the game definitely needs it.
I am confident the developers will end up doing it, however, the mission variety will be much harder to fix.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Also, heard the DLC is absolute shit and basically just a pay-to-win addition.

There is no real DLC yet, that's just a deluxe edition bonus pack.
The DLC is not really P2W, but it is not very useful either:
You get a single character (not a class of character, a single unique character) that supposedly got mentioned in the books, who cannot really die, but is already at max XP with every skill unlocked (he has a higher cap than your guys), but with fixed gear.
I usually don't take characters that would just leech XP from other. So I'd say it's more like an emergency measure.
The Pay2Win stuff was the preorder lolhammer, but it is not included in the DLC iirc.

I made a Steam review for the DLC:

The base game is really solid, but you should get the DLC only if you also want to experience purchasing overpriced miniatures in a hobby store:
You get a single (overpowered) character, not class, for 15 €, and you cannot even spec him.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Galdred Some reviews mention huge framerate drops during enemy turn, probably due to denuvo, any feedback on this?
I have no idea whether it is Denuvo or not, but on my Desktop, the game was very unresponsive during menus (it was power point bad). I haven't tested since the performance patch, though.
On my laptop, it looked ok (with the performance patch, but I didn't try before).

I didn't notice framerate drops during enemy turn, but they spend too much time on some animations (not that it's an issue, given how seldom they get to act...).
 

Galdred

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Performances seem much better now, but it probably still depend on your configuration "luck". I had other games where players had a lot of crashes when I didn't get any, but back in the day, I could not run Baldur's Gate for 3 months, and the guys at Bioware tech support told me they never had someone else report the same issue, so it is very hard to say for certain how it will work on a given configuration. However, many said it was much better now.

Regarding difficulty, some of the "deeds" make things much harder (no willpower spent is the hardest, and almost requires a specific build, but no mastercrafted weapons and armors and only 3 knights are pretty challenging too). It is still hard to keep things from derailing at the strategic level. My ship is down to 1 HP, and 2 planets have reached corruption level 5, so I get more and more chaos gate missions (I park my ship in the vicinity so that I can be sure I get to them).
 
Self-Ejected

underground nymph

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It is still hard to keep things from derailing at the strategic level.
Yeah, it’s really easy to fuck up strategically in a couple of ordinary things. Piss off Kai, choose a wrong action during an event, get wrecked by death guard fleet and you start realizing that you are losing ground very rapidly unless immediately getting your shit together.
My ship is down to 1 HP, and 2 planets have reached corruption level 5, so I get more and more chaos gate missions (I park my ship in the vicinity so that I can be sure I get to them).
When a chaos gates start opening you better be approaching the final story missions, because after some story event they’ll start popping up like mushrooms after a rain, and there’s no sensible way to keep them under control.
 

Alpharius

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My ship is down to 1 HP, and 2 planets have reached corruption level 5, so I get more and more chaos gate missions (I park my ship in the vicinity so that I can be sure I get to them).
When a chaos gates start opening you better be approaching the final story missions, because after some story event they’ll start popping up like mushrooms after a rain, and there’s no sensible way to keep them under control.
They start opening two at a time after a certain research is started, the game hints at it like make sure your team is prepared, there is no turning back etc.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/wh...rying-to-perfect-their-powerful-space-marines

Warhammer 40K: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters' devs are still "trying to perfect" their powerful Space Marines​

Noah Decter-Jackson talks about the tension of making superhumans

Adapting an established property in any medium has got to be a pretty tricky proposition. Satisfying the long term fans while keeping things approachable for newcomers on top of, well, making a good game. Add in the complexities of making a turn-based game based on an existing turn-based game and it’s surprising that developers don’t just collapse into gibbering, tentacle-waving Chaos Spawn.

Complex Games, the developers of recent XCOM-like Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters not only managed to resist the mutating power of the Warp, but produced an absolute cracker of a game. Suspecting pacts with Dark Powers were behind it, I put on my big Inquisitorial hat and set off to question Noah Decter-Jackson, the game’s Creative Director.

RPS Emperor Katherine, Beloved By All, awarded it a coveted Bestest Best back in May, and I’ve been rather enamoured with it myself. As a big Warhammer nerd, I really appreciate how they’ve absolutely nailed the feeling of Space Marines, and not just any Space Marines, elite, super-secret, space wizard Space Marines, charging about being generally spacey and mariney.

Portraying the genuinely superhuman in a game can’t be easy. The average shooty video game protagonist can sprint around pulling off headshots while soaking up hails of gunfire, then duck behind a wall for a quick breather before doing it all over again. They may as well be Space Marines already. On the other hand, XCOM soldiers are generally pretty fragile, to the point where the best way to play the game is to name them all after your friends and then regale them with hilarious tales of how they met their untimely demise.

Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters: Subtitle does a sterling job of balancing these two competing factors. Playing aggressively, you can pull off some plucky assaults that barely give your enemies time to react, let alone mount a coherent defence. At the same time, a few wrong moves and you’ll quickly become overwhelmed. I wanted to know more about how that balance was achieved, and what influences the team took from the tabeltop game, and I got some great responses to my emailed questions.


Grey Knights fight a large fleshy boss monster in Warhammer 40K: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters
I was pleasantly surprised when I saw the game was about Grey Knights. What drew you to them?

We actually started with Nurgle and the Death Guard. We had this idea many years ago of creating a strategic conflict and campaign built around a threat that could not be fought so easily with martial force. As a result, we sort of naturally came to an idea fitting the 40K universe of an intergalactic plague. That naturally led us to Nurgle, which naturally led us to the Grey Knights as the ideal force to contend with such a threat in Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters.

How do you balance conveying the feel of such powerful warriors with providing an interesting tactical challenge?

It’s not easy, and we’re still trying to perfect it: the Astartes need to feel powerful, rather than being flimsy and disposable, which is sort of the standard balance in this genre. We tried to flip the script in many different ways on that standard, giving the player tools that they can use like the Knights’ psychic abilities, equipment and the environment itself – this allows the player to be more active and aggressive.

The sense of 'tension' in this kind of game balance is very different because of that. The Grey Knights can't be made to feel expendable, so as a player you aren't going to have that same immediate fear that if one of your squadmates walks around a corner they’ll instantly get pot-shot and be out for the rest of the game. In practice, this means both pushing the scale and numbers of enemies vastly higher than your small squad, as well as building out mechanics based around pressure from attrition, particularly through accumulating injuries over time.

Was there any part of the tabletop games or the fiction that particularly inspired you? Anything that leapt out and made you think “we’ve got to include that”?

Well, the tabletop certainly is an inspiration at a very high level: equipment and abilities are taken or adapted from the various books and codices over the years. The number one thing we knew we wanted in the game once Nurgle was chosen as the antagonist was to work in Nurglings, which we had to do a bit creatively to fit them properly within the mechanics – and we think that worked out pretty well.

From the standpoint of the fiction, we're familiar with the narrative trope where an Inquisitor shows up, puts the run-around on the 'heroes', and blatantly betrays them all to Chaos. We instead wanted to construct a narrative that focused on the dedication, will and sacrifice needed to overcome these kinds of odds – that brought out a bit more of the human versus the superhuman in this universe.

A tech priest talks to the player in Warhammer 40K: Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters
What was the level of Warhammer experience in the studio before you started work on the game? Did anyone get into the hobby through working on the game?

Myself and several of my partners of the past 20 years have been playing the tabletop since our teens, and have engaged with the universe in other ways since (books, board games, video games, etc...). Many of our team members are the same, so we're all pretty familiar with Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 from many different angles and perspectives.

We also launched The Horus Heresy: Drop Assault for mobile in 2015, so we've been working directly on Games Workshop digital games for close to 10 years now.

And just for fun, is anyone working on any minis at the moment and can we have pictures please?

You can probably spot some of the mini work our team's done casually on lunch breaks in the studio in our dev diaries. I've only started to get back into painting a bit over the past couple of years (Death Guard, of course). I've attached an image of one of our team member's recent work on some Bloodletters: I love the blood work on that banner!

A group of four Bloodletter minifigs, one holding a banner that has extremely gooey looking blood on it

There you have it, my humble acolytes. Not only was Nurgle behind Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters: Subtitle - Deluxe from the start, but we have pictorial evidence of a Khornate daemon infestation at the studio. Time to call in the Grey Knights!
 

Grunker

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The respec/additional skill point mechanic of this game has got to be some of the most pants-on-head retarded stuff ever included in a video game. No wonder half the internet doesn't know how to respec, no one would guess at such a weird implementation

Hm... How about building your character as you go? Or do you want to know The Best Build™ right at the start?

For me this does the opposite. If I know the respec mechanics are as arcane as this, I will never test stuff out or run unoptimal setup, rather I'll restart games until I know what I want to do and then commit to my actual playthrough once I know what I want to do, because the cost for settling into a playthrough just throwing around points as I feel like can be massive. King Arthur had the right idea: respeccing is expensive and takes out your dude for a mission. Result: I never looked up a build and I experimented with a ton of shit on all my dudes, learning as I went along. There's almost not a skill or build available to me I haven't played around with in my run of that game.

Even King Arthur had stuff you couldn't respec (essences) but I never got sad about misusing those because they're kind of like an extra bonus on top of your dude, not something that make or breaks his usefulness.
 
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Self-Ejected

underground nymph

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The respec/additional skill point mechanic of this game has got to be some of the most pants-on-head retarded stuff ever included in a video game. No wonder half the internet doesn't know how to respec, no one would guess at such a weird implementation

Hm... How about building your character as you go? Or do you want to know The Best Build™ right at the start?

For me this does the opposite. If I know the respec mechanics are as arcane as this, I will never test stuff out or run unoptimal setup, rather I'll restart games until I know what I want to do and then do The One Perfect Playthrough, because the cost for settling into a playthrough just throwing around points as I feel like can be massive. King Arthur had the right idea: respeccing is expensive and takes out your dude for a mission. Result: I never looked up a build and I experimented with a ton of shit on all my dudes, learning as I went along.

Even King Arthur had stuff you couldn't respec (essences) but I never got sad about misusing those because they're kind of like an extra bonus on top of your dude, not something that make or breaks his usefulness.
Eh there’s not really much to experiment with in this game to start with. I welcome a respec being pain in ass. Makes you think before spend skill points.
 

Grunker

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The respec/additional skill point mechanic of this game has got to be some of the most pants-on-head retarded stuff ever included in a video game. No wonder half the internet doesn't know how to respec, no one would guess at such a weird implementation

Hm... How about building your character as you go? Or do you want to know The Best Build™ right at the start?

For me this does the opposite. If I know the respec mechanics are as arcane as this, I will never test stuff out or run unoptimal setup, rather I'll restart games until I know what I want to do and then do The One Perfect Playthrough, because the cost for settling into a playthrough just throwing around points as I feel like can be massive. King Arthur had the right idea: respeccing is expensive and takes out your dude for a mission. Result: I never looked up a build and I experimented with a ton of shit on all my dudes, learning as I went along.

Even King Arthur had stuff you couldn't respec (essences) but I never got sad about misusing those because they're kind of like an extra bonus on top of your dude, not something that make or breaks his usefulness.
Eh there’s not really much to experiment with in this game to start with. I welcome a respec being pain in ass. Makes you think before spend skill points.

I've never spent as much time agonizing over skill point allocation in a non-RPG as in King Arthur, and that has a pretty bare-bones skill tree (if a bit more involved than Chaos Gate) and a more approachable respec mechanic.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The respec/additional skill point mechanic of this game has got to be some of the most pants-on-head retarded stuff ever included in a video game. No wonder half the internet doesn't know how to respec, no one would guess at such a weird implementation

Hm... How about building your character as you go? Or do you want to know The Best Build™ right at the start?

For me this does the opposite. If I know the respec mechanics are as arcane as this, I will never test stuff out or run unoptimal setup, rather I'll restart games until I know what I want to do and then do The One Perfect Playthrough, because the cost for settling into a playthrough just throwing around points as I feel like can be massive. King Arthur had the right idea: respeccing is expensive and takes out your dude for a mission. Result: I never looked up a build and I experimented with a ton of shit on all my dudes, learning as I went along.

Even King Arthur had stuff you couldn't respec (essences) but I never got sad about misusing those because they're kind of like an extra bonus on top of your dude, not something that make or breaks his usefulness.
Eh there’s not really much to experiment with in this game to start with. I welcome a respec being pain in ass. Makes you think before spend skill points.
But many skills are hard to assess without testing them.
Paying Req points directly would still be a signficant cost, because you are not swimming in them, but that would be better than encouraging you to suicide your rookies for respec (and end up costing the same, minus tedium and retardation).
 

Olinser

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So I'm almost done with my Legendary playthrough at almost 100% achievements.

I'd give it a 7/10. Decent time, but not worth a full price buy, wishlist it and wait for a sale.

Basically it had some decent ideas with very poor implementation.

Decent overall, I got some fun, moderately well balanced but with a few crazy broken abilities like the Justicar - right we'll just give huge amounts of free AP to our LOL crit stacking teleporting even more massive-AP recovering Interceptor and he'll get 8x crit hits every single round for 15+ damage a hit, but the progression and lategame are really, REALLY bad because of the excessive RNG and the poor implementation of the ability system.

Loot system is a decent IDEA that you have to choose between getting early items or investing in upgrades at the GM reports to get better items later, and the idea of 'hey you can take a risk to get more requisition with mission goals but if you fail you lose some' but the implementation is just terrible because of the RNG. Almost all of the deeds are hilariously easy even on hardest difficulty (with the SOLE EXCEPTION of 'use no willpower'), so you're pretty much swimming in Req the whole game, and because you only get 1 single item from each slot each mission, it's honestly not even much of a choice. You're so unlikely to get an actual upgrade that you'll be absolutely bursting with requisition even with upgrading every single slot every GM report - even on my Legendary run I never actually had to make a tough choice.

This is further compounded by the Passive Wargear. The tier 2 and 3 ones are just way too good, and getting them is WAY too RNG dependent. Once you have a wargear, you have it permanently for all knights, but the chance of the one you actually want showing up is so low that you're essentially forced to continuously buy crap that you know you're never going to use like the crappy secondary grenades and skulls, just to try and increase the chances of the +crit ones. The difference between a knight with both the T3 +crit damage and +crit chance wargear equipped compared to one without is RIDICULOUS.

So far I've gotten a decent amount of entertainment from it, but holy hell, the extra ability point/respec system is absolute GARBAGE. Recruiting high level knights is a horrific trap because they come with a shotgun splatter of random abilities which make them mediocre to useless without respeccing, and I LITERALLY DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE to get extra ability points or respec in my first game because I never actually lost a knight! And that makes the so-called 'upgraded' classes even worse, because you're going to have to recruit them at higher levels and basically HAVE to get a respec to use them. And oh by the way, most of the 'advanced' classes are shittier than the 'basic' classes, so there's no real reason to get them in the first place.

It's idiotic that the only way to actually get any amount of extra ability points or respec is to intentionally kill your Knights. Because the game is so small scale and there's so little incentive to do anything other than fight 1 small squad at a time, even on Legendary I never actually lost a knight unless I intentionally killed him. On my legendary run I never upgraded the knight recruitment, and once I had my guys all up to 8s or so I started recruiting a low level knight so he could permadie with only 1 mission, so I'd be running missions with 3 knights + corpse just to farm bonus ability points. That's a really, REALLY stupid system.

And the final mission was, once again, a decent idea with horrible implementation.

OK, so the idea of a final boss fight where you CAN'T one-cycle the boss like every other one of them is fine, and the idea of 'hey these guys are fighting the boss and these guys are trying to control reinforcements' isn't a bad idea. But what the actual FUCK with 2 squads required with absolutely zero warning? Literally every single mission in the game up to this point was with a squad of 4 (possibly + Vakir). Now suddenly you need 2 squads, and oh by the way, you're locked into the mission and you can't leave and train up a 2nd squad because screw you. If you don't have a 2nd squad (luckily I did), hope you had an earlier save you can go back to!

So a decent game that could have been a great game with better playtesting and implementation of their ideas overall.
 
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Cyberarmy

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How are they going to upgrade one of the most repetitive games in history? This genre is always got repetitive but Daemonhunters took it to another level.
You basically kill sameish Nurgle enemies, in sameish maps, using sameish marines with sameish skills and gear. Getting a different marine class as a RNG reward is bullshit. I got a paladin just before the end battle and librarian from the grandmaster. Never seen chaplain or purifier...

This game really needs more enemy types, different than Nurgle especially. I got that Bloom is the main objective but come on, send us some Orks, Tyranids or Eldar :/
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How are they going to upgrade one of the most repetitive games in history? This genre is always got repetitive but Daemonhunters took it to another level.
You basically kill sameish Nurgle enemies, in sameish maps, using sameish marines with sameish skills and gear. Getting a different marine class as a RNG reward is bullshit. I got a paladin just before the end battle and librarian from the grandmaster. Never seen chaplain or purifier...

This game really needs more enemy types, different than Nurgle especially. I got that Bloom is the main objective but come on, send us some Orks, Tyranids or Eldar :/
They could have made the game less repetitive by adding missions on top of the existing 2-3.
As for added characters, they already have the Khorne demons. They could at least make use of these outside of the prologue, even if the main enemy needs to remain Nurgle.
Like: the inquisition sends you on side missions against Khorne for a reward or something.
As for Marine class RNG, it is bullshit indeed, but you can see what you'll get as reward before choosing your mission, so you can usually get out of your way to get the one you need.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
:necro:

they just abandoned this lol? No updates since june

The game's official Twitter account is still active (tweeting out random bullshit) so they might still be working on something.
But it could very well be another game. They came from mobile game development before I think, so if it didn't bring as much as their previous mobile 40K F2P game, it could make more sense for them to come back to mobile.
 

Olinser

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So apparently this game has somehow been nominated for Game of the Year in the Golden Joystick awards.

I mean it was a decent game but whose butthole did they lick to get on that list?!?!
 

TwoEdge

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https://www.frontier.co.uk/news/pre...complex-games-inc-following-success-warhammer

Cambridge, UK – November 2, 2022 Frontier Developments plc (AIM: FDEV, ‘Frontier’), a UK-based leading developer and publisher of videogames, today announced the acquisition of Complex Games Inc. (‘Complex Games’), a talented, Canada-based game development studio known for the critically acclaimed turn-based tactical RPG, Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters which launched under the Frontier Foundry (‘Foundry’) third-party games label in May 2022.

The news marks the first acquisition of a development studio for Frontier. The acquisition is a continuation of the company’s dedication to growth and expansion, further enhancing Frontier’s portfolio of genre-leading titles, whilst creating a core development footprint for Frontier in Manitoba, Canada, a region with an extensive and growing talent pool for videogame development.

“When we launched our third-party publishing strategy in 2019 we were excited by the potential to align our Frontier Foundry development partners more formally with Frontier through acquisition,” said Jonny Watts, CEO of Frontier Developments. “Our experience with Complex Games on Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters has been terrific, and I am delighted to welcome Noah and the team to Frontier, with a view to growing and evolving our development team in Manitoba, Canada. This is Frontier’s first acquisition and we will continue to explore opportunities to grow Frontier’s resources to further develop and nurture our portfolio.”

“Working with Frontier on Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters has been a great experience and I am excited about our growth plans for our Winnipeg studio,”
said Noah Decter-Jackson, CEO of Complex Games. “I am really proud of Complex Games’ achievements and I’d like to thank everyone who has been involved with that success over many years. I look forward to developing even more great games in the future as part of Frontier.”

Founded in 2001 by Noah Decter-Jackson and Adrian Cheater, Complex Games’ 20-strong team have extensive experience working across a wide variety of game genres and platforms. The closer collaboration achieved through the acquisition will enable Complex Games and Frontier to grow and evolve the studio in Winnipeg to develop even more ambitious future titles, whilst nurturing Warhammer 40,000: Chaos Gate – Daemonhunters.

Maybe this is the cause of the radio silence? Reestructuring and whatnot?
 
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zapotec

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So compared to the old chaos gate how it fares hm?
 

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