Was the Dishonored series good? Did System Shock 2 have good level design?

[fantadomat]

Another thread cut

 

[Infinitron]

I had no idea there were so many Dishonored fanboys on here. I really don't understand the love those games get.

I believe I can explain this.

You could say there's a school of thought that developed on the RPG Codex during the 2000s that posited that the main, overriding flaw of modern (non-open world) console popamole games was poor, constraining level design. This is the generation of gamers that was utterly traumatized by the tiny maps of Deus Ex: Invisible War and the claustrophobic tunnels of BioShock. They've come to value good level design to such a degree that they're willing to overlook a lot of flaws if they get it. It's something that probably doesn't make as much sense to the post-Skyrim generation, who take expansive game spaces for granted.

 

[Lord Romulus]

Only played the first one and thought it was decent at best. Seemed like the only way to get the "good ending" is to blink past everything. Would rather play something like Hitman since it mixes things up and provides interesting ways to complete levels besides just blinking past everything or just straight up killing everything in your path.

 

[fantadomat]

Dishonoured are decent games,they are no thief level of good,but still decent. Also it is not like there is a lot of stealth fps games out there.

 

[Yosharian]

The most epicly stupid design decision for Dishonored was adding free blink. Like fucking stupid.

They meticulously create levels for traversal on foot jumping and mantling, which is evident by all those routes, chains etc., then some genius decides "lets compromise our level design with free teleportation!"

And yes, Dishonored is pretty shitty and below Arkane's standards

Ah but if you deliberately choose not to use Blink, the game is excellent!

 

[Yosharian]

I had no idea there were so many Dishonored fanboys on here. I really don't understand the love those games get.

I believe I can explain this.

You could say there's a school of thought that developed on the RPG Codex during the 2000s that posited that the main, overriding flaw of modern (non-open world) console popamole games is that they had poor, constraining level design. This is the generation of gamers that was utterly traumatized by the tiny maps of Deus Ex: Invisible War and the claustrophobic tunnels of BioShock. They've come to value level design to such a degree that they're willing to overlook a lot of flaws. It's something that probably doesn't make as much sense to the post-Skyrim generation, who take expansive game spaces for granted.

I'm 36 years old, so it's amusing that you consider me part of the 'post-Skyrim' generation, but thanks for the explanation. For the record, I grew up playing Thief on a 486 that was so slow, the zombie level was a slideshow. (It made it even scarier)

 

[Wesp5]

Gameplay takes priority over the ship being 'realistic', surely?

Ehhh, I dunno. I have no desire to play SS2 knowing it's corridors that conveniently open up for you. But so was Half-Life and I enjoyed that game a lot. Guess it depends on how good the gameplay is.

Gameplay and realism should always be a compromise if you are supposed to be in a real environment, otherwise it will kill the immersion for me. SS2's level design wasn't "maze-like" as in confusing but rather, as has been stated, in that it looked nothing like a space ship. Combine this to the endless backtracking, the enemy respawning and the engine section which indeed looked like a maze, and it all screamed "How do we make the game longer without adding more maps?" to me! Which basically is exactly the same in "SS3" aka "NewPrey". Half-Life had some weird level design too, but it was a huge base underground so they could basically do what they wanted. And speaking of which, another thing that annoyed me a lot about SS2 compared to HL1 is that you never met anyone alive. Everyone was always dead or gone when you reached them which got really boring after a while.

Coming back on topic, I enjoyed the Disnonored games much more, but I agree that "Blink" was much to powerfull. Also the game couldn't decide whether is was supposed to be a shooter or a sneaker, compared to the Thief games. Why give the player so many great ways to kill enemies and then punish them by increasing the chaos level even in cutscenes where it couldn't even play a role?

 

[Master]

You complain about lack of realism, respawning and backtracking but its exactly backtracking and respawning that make the ship more believable...

 

[Yosharian]

The whole 'chaos' concept is a fucking joke.

 

[Yosharian]

You complain about lack of realism, respawning and backtracking but its exactly backtracking and respawning that make the ship more belivable...

One of John Romero's rules for creating DOOM levels was for players to revisit areas in a level in order for them to become more familiar with it.

 

[Makabb]

'Was Dishonored good?'

No, it was poor mans Dark Messiah.

 

[Wesp5]

You complain about lack of realism, respawning and backtracking but its exactly backtracking and respawning that make the ship more believable...

I can imagine that backtracking to some extent makes sense if new areas in old sections become unlocked, but I'll never understand how enemies spawning in empty rooms with no second entrance can be believable!

And yes, Dark Messiah was great! I remember kicking enemies off cliffs all the time . I wonder why there was never a sequel done to that, or why no modders ever picked up the assets to make a real RPG out of it.

 

[JarlFrank]

I wonder why there was never a sequel done to that

Ubisoft

 

[Master]

You complain about lack of realism, respawning and backtracking but its exactly backtracking and respawning that make the ship more believable...

I can imagine that backtracking to some extent makes sense if new areas in old sections become unlocked, but I'll never understand how enemies spawning in empty rooms with no second entrance can be believable!

Why not, there are bulkheads everywhere so its not much of a strech. But the main thing is they keep you on your toes and make you pay attention, and not just wonder when is the next level gonna come up.

 

[Wesp5]

Why not, there are bulkheads everywhere so its not much of a strech.

By "empty rooms with no second entrance" I meant rooms with no bulkheads.

 

[Maggot]

Gameplay takes priority over the ship being 'realistic', surely?

Ehhh, I dunno. I have no desire to play SS2 knowing it's corridors that conveniently open up for you. But so was Half-Life and I enjoyed that game a lot. Guess it depends on how good the gameplay is.

Gameplay and realism should always be a compromise if you are supposed to be in a real environment, otherwise it will kill the immersion for me. SS2's level design wasn't "maze-like" as in confusing but rather, as has been stated, in that it looked nothing like a space ship. Combine this to the endless backtracking, the enemy respawning and the engine section which indeed looked like a maze, and it all screamed "How do we make the game longer without adding more maps?" to me! Which basically is exactly the same in "SS3" aka "NewPrey". Half-Life had some weird level design too, but it was a huge base underground so they could basically do what they wanted. And speaking of which, another thing that annoyed me a lot about SS2 compared to HL1 is that you never met anyone alive. Everyone was always dead or gone when you reached them which got really boring after a while.

Coming back on topic, I enjoyed the Disnonored games much more, but I agree that "Blink" was much to powerfull. Also the game couldn't decide whether is was supposed to be a shooter or a sneaker, compared to the Thief games. Why give the player so many great ways to kill enemies and then punish them by increasing the chaos level even in cutscenes where it couldn't even play a role?

I never realized you were a cyperpunk spaceship expert.

 

[Wesp5]

I never realized you were a cyperpunk spaceship expert.

I'm not. But I can imagine the SS2 developer meetings go like this: "We don't have time and resources to make more maps with new content, what shall we do?" "Let's just send the player back all over the place with a maximum amount of loading screens to areas they already visited." "But this will be boring because they already cleared these areas out!" "Then we will have endlessly respawning enemies popup there." "But fighting them will become easy once the player has gotten better weapons." "Then we will make the weapons degrade with some ridiculous technobabble explanation so they have to use the wrench most of the time." "Brilliant! This way we can double the playing time without making any new maps." I can magine the NewPrey developers having the same conversation !

 

[Maggot]

I never realized you were a cyperpunk spaceship expert.

I'm not. But I can imagine the SS2 developer meetings go like this: "We don't have time and resources to make more maps with new content, what shall we do?" "Let's just send the player back all over the place with a maximum amount of loading screens to areas they already visited." "But this will be boring because they already cleared these areas out!" "Then we will have endlessly respawning enemies popup there." "But fighting them will become easy once the player has gotten better weapons." "Then we will make the weapons degrade with some ridiculous technobabble explanation so they have to use the wrench most of the time." "Brilliant! This way we can double the playing time without making any new maps." I can magine the NewPrey developers having the same conversation !

There is barely any backtracking and when there is any, it is to open an untouched area. This is the same series where you have to find a randomized code hidden on every floor to beat the game.

 

[Wesp5]

There is barely any backtracking and when there is any, it is to open an untouched area.

You are right, there basically is only one time you need to backtrack but this is from the command level down to engineering and back! Which means to go through all the loading zones two times with endless spawning enemies and a wrench. There might have been an elevator but still it was a lot of wasted time . I didn't have fun! And to be back on topic, I don't remember anything like this in the Dishonored games, although the same happens a lot in NewPrey. Seems like Arkane Studios Austin has a different game philosophy...

 

[Trithne]

Comparing Dishonored to Thief isnt really the right comparison imo. It shares vastly more of its design with Deus Ex, and only window dressing with Thief. Viewing it as a successor to Deus Ex makes a lot more sense, with the self contained levels, allowance for lethal and high action approaches, and magic as a stand in for augmentations.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Does the Codex luv Dishonored series?

 

[Egosphere]

is dishonored better than thief 3 at least?

 

[RNGsus]

The most epicly stupid design decision for Dishonored was adding free blink. Like fucking stupid.

They meticulously create levels for traversal on foot jumping and mantling, which is evident by all those routes, chains etc., then some genius decides "lets compromise our level design with free teleportation!"

And yes, Dishonored is pretty shitty and below Arkane's standards

Were they copying nuThief with that blink shit? I forget which came first. Dishonored was fun, haven't played 2, but Chaos Theory is a better game so I just return to that. I prefer first person, but goddamit CT had better levels.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Which means to go through all the loading zones two times with endless spawning enemies and a wrench.

Barely remember any respawning enemies in the game, unless you ignored cameras and ended up triggering the alarm on every corner.

 

[Wesp5]

Barely remember any respawning enemies in the game, unless you ignored cameras and ended up triggering the alarm on every corner.

Weird, because LGS actually added options to edit enemy respawning and weapon degradation in their own official patch. Sadly by the time the patch was out I had already played the game. See here: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=12.0