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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Blaine

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Like tactical turn-based combat is an anomaly, anaphema of a genre. The hell.

That's what modern gamers and "gaming journalists" actually believe, yes. They have no concrete justification for this belief, any more than they have justification for the belief that 2D graphics are outdated. 3D graphics have been around for decades (crude though they were), and the first electronic game ever devised was real-time, not turn-based.

It's tough to get through to people who were born in the 1990s and raised on a diet of console shooters and cinematic QTE™ Push-A-To-Win™ $60 movies. They've never been given the opportunity to realize that 2D and turn-based have their places, as do 3D and real-time. The phenomenon is very similar to children who are improperly raised by their parents—never forced to eat their vegetables and to try new and strange foods, but instead allowed to eat hotdogs, hamburgers, grilled cheese, pizza and candy. That's not to say pizza and candy are bad, but broaden your fucking palate, you spoiled little shits!

Some of those kids born in the 1990s are "gaming journalists" now....
 

hiver

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Pizza and candy are bad if you eat only them.
very bad in fact.

As for shit gamers and game promoters (not journalists) - it is a case of protecting and reinforcing emotional engagement by deriding something else.


"anaphema" :lol:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In that guy's defense he seems to be talking entirely about his own personal perspective. He isn't pulling a "RPGs without voicework are all bad. But this is just my opinion so I can't be wrong lol!" he's just saying he personally can't enjoy RPGs without voices. Which is shit of course but the "But it's my opinion" defense works for it.

Not exactly. In one post he says old school CRPGs are "distancing themselves from the true definition of an RPG", as defined by Gygax, etc.

He's not just saying "I don't like this". He's saying "I don't like this because it's not a true RPG and Fallout 3 is."

And no, he's not me. :lol:
 

Multi-headed Cow

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In one post he says old school CRPGs are "distancing themselves from the true definition of an RPG", as defined by Gygax, etc.
I'm just going by what was quoted. Sure as hell am not subjecting myself to Watchwitz or the official Wasteland 2 forum willingly. I already had an incident this evening when I saw people who actually liked Black and White. I'm getting a case of the vapors even remembering it!
 

potatojohn

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Video looks OK. I kind of hoped they would up the maturity a bit from W1 (mutated plants, yeah ok...) but I guess not. I didn't mind the radio VA either.

But they have to fix the camera. I shouldn't have to rotate the camera in every room and play with perspective and whatnot to see whats what. Panning the camera should be enough for everything.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm not sure if rotating was actually necessary when he did it, or if he was just showing it off.
 

hiver

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But they have to fix the camera. I shouldn't have to rotate the camera in every room and play with perspective and whatnot to see whats what. Panning the camera should be enough for everything.
You can use TOPDOOOWN PERSPEEECTIIIVVVVEEEE!


:hearnoevil:
 

imweasel

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But they have to fix the camera. I shouldn't have to rotate the camera in every room and play with perspective and whatnot to see whats what. Panning the camera should be enough for everything.
You can rotate the camera with the keyboard and pan with the mouse wheel (or keyboard also).

Hard for those with one hand or those like stroke their balls affectionately while playing a game. It should be okay for the rest though.
 

suejak

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No. Just give me one perspective and be done with it. Either go Lara Croft over-the-shoulder cam like DAO or give me a single fixed isometric angle like IE. Do not go NWN or I'll have trouble playing your game even if it's good, like MotB.
 

Themadcow

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No. Just give me one perspective and be done with it. Either go Lara Croft over-the-shoulder cam like DAO

Errrr, DAO did have multiple perspectives... unless you played it on a console *spit*. It was a disaster that they forced 'over the shoulder' cam as the only option in DA2.
 

Wizfall

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But they have to fix the camera. I shouldn't have to rotate the camera in every room and play with perspective and whatnot to see whats what. Panning the camera should be enough for everything.
You can use TOPDOOOWN PERSPEEECTIIIVVVVEEEE!


:hearnoevil:
Problem is true top down perspective like in W2 is a horrible perspective.
Such a horrible perspective that it was almost never used (i can't remember a successful game using it).
What was used was false top down perspective like in Ultima 4/5/Wasteland1 and so many other. That was a very good enjoyable perspective which had almost nothing to do with this true 3D top down perspective.
But as much as i dislike moving camera, i found here it could be manageable and way better than in NWN or DA.
 

Multi-headed Cow

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More Desslock going "Muh Christ":

Desslock said:
Really? Think about what it would be like if any other identifiable group was universally depicted, in every game, as malevolent or insane. Because facile, biased, ludicrous characterizations are inherently offensive.

Let alone the fact that the universally adopted interpretation happens to be the exact opposite of reality in most instance. Christians are never shown in gaming to be acting and advocating the tenets of that religion - in short, acting Christian, even though that's what actually identifies the group - they're instead always doing the exact opposite. It's immature, cowardly and ludicrous, and obviously offensive to anyone who believes in those tenets.

Anyway, back to Wasteland 2 -- I really liked what was shown of combat and gameplay. It's exactly what I was hoping for.

Even though I'm not sure why he's getting his panties in such a bunch over this, I can't really think of a game off the top of my head that had Christians in a positive light. Books and movies certainly, but no games. About the best I can think of would be popes in games like Crusader Kings since they'll bitch at you about warring with fellow Christians, but that's a pretty mild positive since you also get crusades of course and buying indulgences and shit. And for the life of me I can't think of any obviously good (Or even neutral) Christian characters in non-strategy games. There surely must be some but none are coming to mind.

Maybe he does have a point. Even though I'm a godless heathen that does seem pretty strange. JEWISH CONSPIRACY? :fight:

Edit: Wait, Father Grigori from Half-Life 2. That definitely counts right? He doesn't even try to kill you, there's nothing nicer than that! Yeah, definitely counts. Also have no idea if he's orthodox or what but it still counts. CRISIS AVERTED.
 
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Well, the vast majority of "gamers" tend to fit in with the modernist or progressive category (to some degree or another), so it's uh, kind of obvious why you wouldn't find too many games with pro-Christian ect. values being exercised.

Gotta say though, one of the funnest (and easiest for that matter) games I've played when I was very young was this Christian game for NES where you had to round up animals to collect for Noah's Arc, was pretty lol.
 

Multi-headed Cow

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Well, the vast majority of "gamers" tend to fit in with the modernist or progressive category (to some degree or another), so it's uh, kind of obvious why you wouldn't find too many games with pro-Christian ect. values being exercised.
I guess, but it still really strikes me as weird. I know the writing in videogames is awful but it still seems surprising I'm having a hell of a time thinking of Christian characters considering how damn many games I play. You'd think there would be at least one memorable Christian character in that time.

Never really struck me until now as a dirty agnostic. And hell, I live next door to both a full Methodist church and full a Presbyterian church (Which seems weird that my town of 1,000 people has 3 full churches (Third being Catholics off sitting by themselves on the edge of town) but that's neither here nor there) and bump into the priests pretty regularly and we all get along swimmingly. The people who just straight up shit on religion generally get on my nerves, but a militant post apocalyptic Christian faction didn't really bug me until now. They could've gone for a Canticle for Leibowitz-type faction or something. Humph.
 
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Brayko

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and by "gamers" I don't mean that dude who watches ultimate fighting on his 360 and 56" TV, but people who are actively or passively involved in the industry in some way.
 

Blaine

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The primary reason violent and/or insane Christians get all the screen time in computer games is simply that idealized, politically correct portrayals of Christians aren't interesting.

In addition, the way in which Christians wish to be portrayed does not jibe with reality, as evidenced by Desslock's implied presumption that the "tenets of Christianity" are uniformly benign, peaceful, and positive. They're purported to be (by Christians), but they are not, as anyone who's actually read the Bible or examined Catholic dogma ought to know—and even in modern times, the behavior and attitudes of Christian organizations and individuals reflect this. Vatican Palace is a gilded and frescoed, well, palace laden with priceless art, icons, and gold, and peopled by priests, cardinals, and bishops wearing fine fabrics (sometimes). It has its own bank supposedly worth billions. The Roman Catholic Church is the best and most obvious example of greed and corruption, but the leaders of offshoot Christian denominations very often live in luxury as well. A number of prominent and extremely well educated atheists have written or orated scathing condemnations of Christian organizations' tendencies to accumulate wealth from parishoners primarily for their own glorification. These documents or orations were much more eloquently executed than I could ever hope to accomplish, and also this is a computer game forum, so I'm not going to try.

Greed and corruption are only a small aspect of my distaste for religion (and not only my own), but they'll serve as an adequate example.

I was raised Catholic, and attended a private Christian school from kindergarten through ninth grade. I spent my childhood around priests, nuns, deacons, pastors, Catholics, and devout Baptists and Methodists. A great many of these people were and are, in fact, good (even wonderful!) people. My mother and sister are devout Catholics, and I love them both dearly. However, none of them are good people because of Christianity. They'd arguably be better off without it. They've been indoctrinated to feel that belief in scripture, God and Christ equates to being a good person. While they are still good people despite this, they are incredibly misguided, and religions on the whole are harmful to human society—used as a tool by the powerful to control and exploit the powerless, and by the powerless to delude themselves into believing there's a reward beyond worldly drudgery. Being based on ancient make-believe and therefore fundamentally ignorant, religion also very often comes into conflict with scientific progress and positive social change.

Violent and/or insane Christian cults may be "offensive to Christians", but are actually more realistic than an idealized benign portrayal of Christians. There have in fact been lots of Christian-flavored cults throughout modern Western history. Very interesting ones, too.
 

Spectacle

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Well, the vast majority of "gamers" tend to fit in with the modernist or progressive category (to some degree or another), so it's uh, kind of obvious why you wouldn't find too many games with pro-Christian ect. values being exercised.
I guess, but it still really strikes me as weird. I know the writing in videogames is awful but it still seems surprising I'm having a hell of a time thinking of Christian characters considering how damn many games I play. You'd think there would be at least one memorable Christian character in that time.

You've got the Mormons in NV: Honest Hearts, but maybe they don't count as Christians?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The Chantry in Dragon Age was Christianity-in-all-but-name and had a fairly nuanced portrayal.

Blaine, keep your librulism to GD please
 

Multi-headed Cow

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Well, the vast majority of "gamers" tend to fit in with the modernist or progressive category (to some degree or another), so it's uh, kind of obvious why you wouldn't find too many games with pro-Christian ect. values being exercised.
I guess, but it still really strikes me as weird. I know the writing in videogames is awful but it still seems surprising I'm having a hell of a time thinking of Christian characters considering how damn many games I play. You'd think there would be at least one memorable Christian character in that time.

You've got the Mormons in NV: Honest Hearts, but maybe they don't count as Christians?
I'd say they're close enough, but wasn't the only Mormon you actually meet Joshua Graham? And I'm not sure he'd exactly count, both during his time in the Legion and after what with all the killing. Even his happiest and most peaceful ending is still pretty guns a-blazin'.

Still, that's definitely the best example I've heard thus far.
 

Spectacle

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You've got the Mormons in NV: Honest Hearts, but maybe they don't count as Christians?
I'd say they're close enough, but wasn't the only Mormon you actually meet Joshua Graham? And I'm not sure he'd exactly count, both during his time in the Legion and after what with all the killing. Even his happiest and most peaceful ending is still pretty guns a-blazin'.

Still, that's definitely the best example I've heard thus far.
There's also the missionary, Daniel, who is working to keep the Zion tribes safe with a minimum of violence.
 

Multi-headed Cow

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You've got the Mormons in NV: Honest Hearts, but maybe they don't count as Christians?
I'd say they're close enough, but wasn't the only Mormon you actually meet Joshua Graham? And I'm not sure he'd exactly count, both during his time in the Legion and after what with all the killing. Even his happiest and most peaceful ending is still pretty guns a-blazin'.

Still, that's definitely the best example I've heard thus far.
There's also the missionary, Daniel, who is working to keep the Zion tribes safe with a minimum of violence.
Good catch, I forgot about him.
 

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