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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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May 29, 2010
Messages
36,757
"Meow that I warned you please let me live!"
:lol: What a strange meme.
Did I miss something?
"First, you can simply disable camera rotation – the levels have been designed so that you can play the entire game without having to change the camera’s orientation"
Depends on whether or not that's accurate.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,837
"Meow that I warned you please let me live!"
:lol: What a strange meme.
Did I miss something?
"First, you can simply disable camera rotation – the levels have been designed so that you can play the entire game without having to change the camera’s orientation"
Depends on whether or not that's accurate.

Thanks Roguey, didn't see that quote. Will believe it when I see it.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Brother None, please do tell us about your new job, really. :?:D

I thought I already did? My job is basically entry-level assistant producer-type stuff. I believe the word "line" in line producer stems from the fact that this producer is "on the line" doing day-to-day production grind stuff. Though in films the line producer is more concerned with the monetary bottom line, I'm more concerned with just making sure all internal and external communication is flowing smoothly etc.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Brother None, please do tell us about your new job, really. :?:D

I thought I already did? My job is basically entry-level assistant producer-type stuff. I believe the word "line" in line producer stems from the fact that this producer is "on the line" doing day-to-day production grind stuff. Though in films the line producer is more concerned with the monetary bottom line, I'm more concerned with just making sure all internal and external communication is flowing smoothly etc.

Well congrats bro, and all the best wishes for success! We need more people like you in the industry, and you certainly picked a good team to be with.

Ah, who am I kidding, in a few years you'll be working for Bethesda making millions and laughing at us poor peasants for criticizing your glorious games... :( ;)
 

Lady_Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
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>Ranger Party (keyword = blood stains) – “What can you tell us about the blood stains on the trail?”
>NPC Bob – “Oh, that was me. I was looking for a weapons stash I had heard about in that canyon and I was jumped by a pissed-off Honey Badger.”


I am happy that they finally went for the complete sentence! :incline:!

The honey badger reference means that somebody read this awesome article.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Meet Darkzone. He knows how to Solve The Dialogue Problem. If only people would listen!

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3468&start=200#p65036

The Dialog problem is more a problem what we want to see, more then what we can do.
Most of the full writen dialog sentece option fans, like those dialog options in Fallout.
Want to have some dialog options which are funny but writen by the developer.
I enjoyed the dialogs in Fallout 1 and 2, but this options are very limited.
The Keyword / Keyphrase system has nearly no limits, what you can ask or say,
but you decide what you write and sometimes you dont know what to write.
And against all statemenst that you can not have a funny dialog like the dialog
in Fallout 2 between you and the enclave soldier, that is not true you can do it.

On the other hand the Keyword / Keyphrase system has a major drawback and that
is that you have always guess what you will say and the reaction of the your
dialog partner will be.
And this fact is what i dont like and other have correctly critizised,
and the keyword/phrase system is in my opinion a little bit thin.

I think that a better solution exists then a simple Keyword/phrase system and
that is a simple Grammatic.

Input:
x = topic (Keyword), y = declarator, z = modificator.

Result:
rd = result dialog, ra = result action.

Lets take a look at the current Keyword system:

talk(x) => result(rd) or/and result(ra).

This is for a machine a good solution but for a human it is not good.
By example:
you: needles
answer: needles is place where the rangers killed the ghoul.

If you look at the answer you can only ask further {needles, place, where, rangers, killed, ghoul}
but you have always guess the raction of your dialog partner which is not good, because it
is not specific enough.

My proposal of a simple grammatic:

talk(y,x) and (z) => result(rd) or/and result(ra).

With:
y = {Ask, Info, Offer, Demand, Rise, Lower, Do, How, Where, What, Who, Why, Where}
z = {Initimidate, Polite, Bluff ,Normal} and {Topic}

The topic modifing parameter -t is a set of Strings representing other keywords.

By example:
you: Ask: needles -p
answer: needles is place where the rangers killed the ghoul.

Now you can further ask: Where: needles -p, What: place -p, Who: rangers -p, How: killed -p etc.
But you can even ask: Where: needles -p, What: needles -p, Why: needles -p.
And even combine other keywords for more possibilities like:
How: help -t=generator.

Ask = simple question about a topic, should be default (not necessary to type in).
Info = an answer to a question from a NPC and should behave like ask.

Normal should be default and therefore not needed to write, or everything that is writen
without a specific modifier is normal.

With this simple grammatic you should be able to do every possible dialog, without
any confusion what you are saying and what the result will be.

Further it would be nice if the grammatic would be translated in to english standard phrases,
and displayed in the dialog window and if we could edit in options these phrases few standard
pharses that are used offten.

Like:

Offer: help -n => We could help. edited; We will help you.
Offer: help -p => We would gladly help you.edited: Our help is the least we can do.
Offer: help -i => You will die without our help.edited: A..hole if we don't help you, you will die.

By using such a grammatic it is possible to keep the current keyword / keyphrase system,
and satisfy both sides, furher even give the player a better tool for commmuncation and teach them to
use a terminal. And it is not costly.
The current Keyword system has a major problem even inXile admited it (indirect but still they did).
And that ist the problem of ambiguouses of the Keywords, what was the response: we will patch it with keyphrases (This is the point where they admit it). I think different make out of a weakness a strong side, don't simply patch it. If it did'n accrue i'm standing on the side of the keyword system, but i also heard the other side, because there are always more then one side. The Keyword system if you are using the human language for transmitting information is also very limited. Yes there is a reason why we have Grammatics, it is simple to overcome those limits.
Therefore the argument that a keyword system is more natural then the system used in Fallout 1 and 2 in entirely nonsens, and even the Homo Erectus would have had a better communcation system then a keyword system.
Don't tell anyone that a 11 - 13 word system with two word grammer in a natural human language is to complicated, for you. Because if i would be your boss and you would say something like that to me, i would point you to the direction of the door and say good luck in your next job.
But for those who think otherwise i have a good message the simple keyword input, is the smallest input unit in my Simple Grammar System, so you can play with just keywords if you want to.
But for those who think that is not enough:
i want some dialog phrases from my rangers,
i don't want ambiguouses keywords and guess what will the rangers say or something like that,
i don't want a simple patch for those misunderstandings made through the simple keyword system,
i want more possiblities beyond simple ask and tell a keyword.
This is the best solution.
But prove me wrong, if you can.
Does a game need such a Simple Grammar System?
No game truely needs a sophisticated system, the simpler the game the more people can play it.
It is commonly known as the "least common denominator".
But i think beyond the Wasteland 2 main story made by inXile, it think about the smart modder, who can use this system to make more out of the dialogs. As like Brian Fargo stated that the game industry assumes that the gamer is not smart, i think this is one thing to prove that a smart system is a good thing for the gamers, where they can show the game industry that they are wrong. Why aim at a small hill, if you can climb the highest mountain?

For those who think that a simple keyword system is enough:

You have 55 dollar and you play let us say poker in Wasteland 2.
You have the keywords for rising bet money: 1, 2, 5, 10 and 20.
But you want rise the bet by 49 dollar. How do you do it?

You will push 20, 20, 5, 2 and 2.

In my Simple Grammar System it looks like that:
Rise: 49, and you can still have the push buttons.

How will you say that 200 dollar is not enough as a reward, that you want 150 more and you dont have the push button to do it?
In SGS:
Rise: 150 -t=reward.

How about bargaining about a price of a weapon or information by 20 dollar?
In SGS:
Lower: 20 -t=price

How will you say to a NPC repair the generator and you dont have the push button because he did not offer you to do it?
In SGS:
Do: repair -t=generator.
You are right about the example. As i wrote it it seemed a good example to demonstrate the limit of a Simple Keyword System, but even as i wrote i thought to myself hmm not good, but it does some things like: type in "raise 49" or "set 49", if its not clear by context proves that you create your own grammatic by taking a keyword and adding a number.

To the "Define mood/tone of conversations" thread i have read it but have forgoten about it. (The sleep deprivation is geting throught to me.) One of the ideas that has gone to my head was that a NPC should have a own opinion about the Rangers, and that is reflected though a value. This value should be effected in a certain way, like the behavior in a dialog, and also should be responsible for the dialog options. You could even create such sitations where you force a NPC to tell you his problems, and then to offer help, and change this way his entire attitude. But i have to admit that behind such ideas is an gigantic state machine, about that i couldn't make any thoughts.

To the thread "Create your own phrases?" it was your idea to at least 33,3% that brought me to the dialog Simple Grammar System. You crated the Thread on the 12th of February, this is when i read about your idea and began to think about the following example using help:

Depending upon the context help is used as a keyword, it will accrue several times, in the game with perhaps multiple meanings. Therefore the word and its usage is context sensitiv, so you cannot create your own phrease to use it in cases where you activate the keyword help. To conter this problem the word has to be context free, to give one meaning and one phrase, which will be activated when the keyword is used.
Disambiguation: This is not about Chomsky hierarchy.
But as most of the critics correctly stated that the keyword help, could mean also: 'Offer help', 'Ask do you need help?' and 'How can i help you'. So you got to a mechanism to free it from the context, then how do the programm Languages handle it? They declare a type of variable like String str, int bla and etc. If one declares a type of help keyword then you can add a phrase which can be edited, by the gamer. But a phrase could be said in with different variations of tone, then this should be a modificator for the hidden attitude of an NPC towards the rangers. How should this input line look like? There were several possibilities but i prefered to show it this way: declarator topic modificator, which is the normal typ of a variable
declaration, at least for the declarator and topic. And yes i am a bash fan. After evaluating and testing this idea at some examples, i thought i can post it. Always thinking of the necessary additional work for the developers, which should be
minimal, but have the greatest benefit.

An other 33,3% fall onto the fact that Simple Keywords are not a good, explanation what the rangers will say and i dont like guessing. The other 33,3% i have currently forgoten.
:avatard::avatard::avatard:
 

Runciter

Augur
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
188
Just because that guy is a loon doesn't mean there isn't a dialogue problem that needs to be fixed. Although apparently there are now meant to be pop-up tool-tips showing the actual sentence resulting from choosing a keyword when you hover your pointer over that keyword. Lame, if you ask me, and kind of defeats the purpose of the keyword system. It would have been better to just put short, unambiguous phrases in place of the keywords.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
and kind of defeats the purpose of the keyword system.

But how? Is the purpose of a keyword system to not know what you're gonna say or to have greater freedom (having "collected" keywords that you can talk about with almost everybody instead or just having set dialogue options)?

Somehow I feel it's the latter.

Of course, they could have made it that you don't actually say anything besides the keyword, but once again they're trying to please too different tastes. Still, I don't think the purpose of a keyword system is to not know what you're gonna say.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3568&start=80#p65462

This decision sets a precedent. The game was funded vastly more than inXile hoped for. Now we know how they will act when they receive massive backlash for their decisions. The rest of this is entirely hypothetical, read it with an open mind.

Imagine Wasteland 2 is a major commercial success after launch. It sells a well and people rave about it. More people buy it and really like it and more people buy it. Ok so now it's time for Wasteland 3 to be kickstarted. InXile puts the funding goal at 3 million, equal to what WL2 received. The goal is blown out of the water mostly due to the commercial success, obviously, and raises $8 million.

Now WL3 has a much larger pool of interested parties. People scream loudly they want a single character, far more loudly than WL2 saw. People scream much louder they want voice acted dialogue. As more people gets involved, the least common denominator will be even lower. We know, if backers get pissed off and throw a fit they will get what they want from inXile because naturally they want to please their fan base. As that fan base grows, their projects are going to move further and further away from old school. The intense reactivity in dialog will be lost due to fully scripted voice acting. The party based game could be tossed for a single hero with companions format.

InXile has shown they will bend when enough "fans" want something different than what they are making. It says a lot about inXile and I do worry about future kickstarted projects. I know they never promised a strict keyword system, but once that was delivered to go back and change it shows they are willing to change things that have already been designed to cater to the least denominator. When the next game has 200,000 backers or something, why should I think inXile will act differently to the larger audiences demands? I fear as the audience gets larger inXile will bend more and more and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Of course if Wasteland 2 is not successfully commercially, I have nothing to be concerned about. I don't think we will see Skyrim level of sales but I can imagine the next Wasteland having double or more the number of backers now. So when your reactive dialog gets changed to linear scripted voice acted lines with no depth in future installments, nobody should be surprised. If half the backers shout, inXile will jump.

:neveraskedforthis:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Well, it's true that that's a possibility. But if Fargo wants to keep a small studio that's not likely to happen. Unless he wants to turn Wasteland into a BBB product the likes of the new Bard's Tale or that Hunted whatever.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
"Lots of text, no voice acting" is a core feature of the niche that Fargo is carving out. Everybody pledging to future inXile Kickstarters will be aware of it in advance.
 

Oesophagus

Arcane
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Messages
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"Lots of text, no voice acting" is a core feature of the niche that Fargo is carving out. Everybody pledging to future inXile Kickstarters will be aware of it.
Fargo still has the control over the game's direction. Besides, there's a difference between people disagreeing about keywords vs structured dialogue, and people disagreeing on TB isometric vs Bethesduh popamole. Even if you were to accept that a bigger audience for a possible W3 means a low common denominator, that denominator is still miles better that the consolefag audience
 
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Messages
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So bros now we're worried if such a game sells too well? I wouldn't worry about that if I were you... :smug:

Too many dumbfucks for such a thing to be even remotely possible... ;)
 

Oesophagus

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Messages
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For one thing I hope for much butthurt from dumb people who buy W2 based only on knowing it's somehow related to Fallout (meaning, in their minds, F3). There will be many lulz when consoletards cry about not being able to succesfully go through the character creation screen
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,973
For one thing I hope for much butthurt from dumb people who buy W2 based only on knowing it's somehow related to Fallout (meaning, in their minds, F3). There will be many lulz when consoletards cry about not being able to succesfully go through the character creation screen

I can't wait for said complaints and decent sales to lead to Wasteland 3 attempting to become another mainstream RPG.
 

SuicideBunny

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Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
8,943
Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3568&start=80#p65462

This decision sets a precedent. The game was funded vastly more than inXile hoped for. Now we know how they will act when they receive massive backlash for their decisions. The rest of this is entirely hypothetical, read it with an open mind.

Imagine Wasteland 2 is a major commercial success after launch. It sells a well and people rave about it. More people buy it and really like it and more people buy it. Ok so now it's time for Wasteland 3 to be kickstarted. InXile puts the funding goal at 3 million, equal to what WL2 received. The goal is blown out of the water mostly due to the commercial success, obviously, and raises $8 million.

Now WL3 has a much larger pool of interested parties. People scream loudly they want a single character, far more loudly than WL2 saw. People scream much louder they want voice acted dialogue. As more people gets involved, the least common denominator will be even lower. We know, if backers get pissed off and throw a fit they will get what they want from inXile because naturally they want to please their fan base. As that fan base grows, their projects are going to move further and further away from old school. The intense reactivity in dialog will be lost due to fully scripted voice acting. The party based game could be tossed for a single hero with companions format.

InXile has shown they will bend when enough "fans" want something different than what they are making. It says a lot about inXile and I do worry about future kickstarted projects. I know they never promised a strict keyword system, but once that was delivered to go back and change it shows they are willing to change things that have already been designed to cater to the least denominator. When the next game has 200,000 backers or something, why should I think inXile will act differently to the larger audiences demands? I fear as the audience gets larger inXile will bend more and more and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Of course if Wasteland 2 is not successfully commercially, I have nothing to be concerned about. I don't think we will see Skyrim level of sales but I can imagine the next Wasteland having double or more the number of backers now. So when your reactive dialog gets changed to linear scripted voice acted lines with no depth in future installments, nobody should be surprised. If half the backers shout, inXile will jump.

:neveraskedforthis:
:hmmm:
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The financial incentive was always to make a 1st person shooter that aped the wasteland name.I'm not worried about Fargo suddenly deciding he wants to become Bethesda.
 

OSK

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Messages
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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Seems a more likely scenario is that Fallout 3-tards who backed will hate the game and the next one won't get funded at all.
 

Oarfish

Prophet
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
Meet Darkzone. He knows how to Solve The Dialogue Problem. If only people would listen!

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3468&start=200#p65036

The Dialog problem is

Sounds like Toady might be implementing that 'right now' for DF. It might not be ambitious enough for him unless the grammar was procedurally generated.

The new conversation approach is working out well enough. Each statement takes about as much time as a regular step, so if you find enough to talk about in some later release, you'd be able to chat until the sun goes down. This also means that conversations are susceptible to interruption, and each statement made by people you are talking to is a "move" they are making either simultaneously with their other actions (like walking and fighting) or instead of them. Incidents you are a part of or rumors that you hear now go into your head, and you can pass them along or bring them up with whoever you talk to. Right now these incidents include every time you strangle a wolf out in the woods, so I'll probably have to find a way to manage the lists according to how interesting they are. In any case, since you can now bring up the occupation and related events, it's a matter of adding some reactions and conversation options geared toward getting the ball rolling.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
"I know they never promised a strict keyword system, but once that was delivered to go back and change it shows they are willing to change things that have already been designed to cater to the least denominator."

Wait, what? I haven't been following W2 news (Generally ignore games except for the occasional video until they're finished), what did they change on the dialog?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
"I know they never promised a strict keyword system, but once that was delivered to go back and change it shows they are willing to change things that have already been designed to cater to the least denominator."

Wait, what? I haven't been following W2 news (Generally ignore games except for the occasional video until they're finished), what did they change on the dialog?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...rter-update-25-reactivity-up-the-wazoo.80815/
 

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