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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Thread - Director's Cut

Zetor

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I would have totally savescummed 33% safes/boxes, but load times can get pretty ridiculous. I think I savescummed the 25% safe in griffith park (with 10 safecrack... the entire "you have a 25% chance to open this with max skill" concept fucking sucks btw) for the +2 zeolite bags.

BTW, if you critfail on a lockpick/safecrack attempt, you can fix it with mechanical repair, which is some more xp. I don't know what happens if you critfail the repair attempt, though...
 

Owlish

Dumbfuck!
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Looks like someone changed the text to the proper "How copy?" instead of just "Copy?" but the voice actor didn't say "How copy?"
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Reduced skill meter time! Thank god for that!
Yup, for all your demolition and healing needs in particular

Concidering the amount of hp you get and how much health kits restore, and that it takes time to accumulate good amount of 200-hp restoring healthkits, healing was slowly dragging me into pit OF MADNESS!@!~!!##
but not anymore
And in Rail Nomads, where there are complete minefields at every road, disarming each and every one of them. Jesus, it took eternity.


Lots of savescummers here I see. Good thing I am not a completionist, so I don't care if I can only open 70% of the containers, safes.
 

Lord Andre

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It's quite surprising how many people seem to miss intuitive ways of problem solving in this game.

Example: if you give NPCs a long range weapon, it doesn't matter if they go rogue or not, because they'll just shoot from where you last positioned them. Yet there are a lot of idiots on inxile forums, steam forums, even here who complain that the NPCs are going rogue and charging into melee.

Or some people complain that NPC are bad because they use a bad weapon, when nothing is stopping you to put their points in whatever weapon skill you choose.

Or some people complain that enemy melee users rush them and make their snipers useless, when the game manual itself tells you to invest in a close range sidearm.

And apparently no one bothers to read in game descriptions, otherwise it would be really clear that combat initiative is more important than APs. The reason enemy melee users manage to get near your sniper before he even gets a shot in, is because he has low CI, if you had good CI you will always shoot first and might even get an extra turn before the enemy acts by which point he's already dead or close to.

This is the result of being used to these streamlined crap RPGs - no one can play a game anymore unless half of it is the tutorial.

Also, there's people comparing it to JA2 and how the combat is less deep but then they make a remark about a problem that could have been solved by thinking and you realize these jackoffs never played JA2 and if they would their ass would explode from butthurt.

I hope this doesn't dicourage Inxile from making moderately challenging RPGs, because by the direction they went with the first patch, I'm expecting Wasteland 3 to have an awesome button and a 5 hour tutorial.
 

imweasel

Guest
Example: if you give NPCs a long range weapon, it doesn't matter if they go rogue or not, because they'll just shoot from where you last positioned them. Yet there are a lot of idiots on inxile forums, steam forums, even here who complain that the NPCs are going rogue and charging into melee.
Even better, just spend some points in leadership.
 

Zetor

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Example: if you give NPCs a long range weapon, it doesn't matter if they go rogue or not, because they'll just shoot from where you last positioned them. Yet there are a lot of idiots on inxile forums, steam forums, even here who complain that the NPCs are going rogue and charging into melee.
Even better, just put some points in leadership.
I actually did both of these things: gave Rose a long-range weapon (neutron projector has sniper rifle-level range when upgraded with a scope) and had my first character with 8 cha and leadership 6.

Then in a particularly rough encounter, my leader got knocked into MRT in the second turn to a combination of sniper fire and enemy grenadiers. No problem, Rose is only like 3 tiles away from him (leader was a sniper; he was also my secondary surgeon, btw), so I'll just use a trauma kit -- lol nope, Rose breaks, leaves cover, runs across the battlefield and stands out in the open without even firing a shot. Next turn I gain control of her, so I move her back (not enough AP to use surgeon). Next turn she breaks AGAIN, and runs in a different direction this time, though at least she took cover. She also breaks control the next turn, and moves yet further away. FINALLY I gain control of her and spend 2 more turns moving back to my leader, then a turn to use a trauma kit before the leader would go into COM.

That's like... 7 turns completely wasted, even though she had a ranged weapon equipped AND I had a high-leadership character in the group.
 

Lord Andre

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Example: if you give NPCs a long range weapon, it doesn't matter if they go rogue or not, because they'll just shoot from where you last positioned them. Yet there are a lot of idiots on inxile forums, steam forums, even here who complain that the NPCs are going rogue and charging into melee.
Even better, just spend some points in leadership.

Well, of course, but in the very early game which is usually when 'tards start raging, you may not have the points for that, but you can throw an NPC a shitty spare rifle and a few bullets right of the bat.

Not to mention some of us dumped Charisma into the ground and that circle is pretty small.

And regarding Leadership, the game says it gives a bonus of 2 but in fact it gives 1 (per point). Is it because of difficulty level or they simply didn't bother to patch it ?

And speaking of patches how about fixing the numbers for weapon damage to adjust with difficulty levels.

Zetor I'm sorry to hear that. I only have a pistol with a scope on her and before that I had a rifle and I never encountered this behaviour once. It might be a bug.

Some things I can think of though: If the clip is empty and she ha no bullets left, but you probably would have noticed that.

And, maybe just like enemy heavy gunners, if she can't move and shoot in the same round she might walk all the way up to the enemy. I have scoped pistol now, which has low AP cost for shooting and usually she just maneuvers to have a clear trajectory to the target than shoots. This is probably why Angela has a lower rate of fucking up, she has the AP and usually the gun to maneuver and shoot while Rose doesn't.

BTW, I have no leadership skill so I had the chance to see her go rogue quite a lot.
 
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Shadenuat

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Yeah give those high str companions with points in bladed&clubs a godly gear laser rifle, way to keep with their character builds.
Good plan.

And melees don't rush snipers because snipers have shit IN, heck, you can just start combat with a headshot. They rush them cause characters, especially NPCs have redonkulous movement ranges in this game.

Also descriptions in game lie, so reading them is not the most trustworthy way to understand mechanics. Trial & error is a lot easier.
I am actually not against Ld&Charisma keeping companions in check, but let's not put blame for incompetence onto players while part of it actually belongs to designers.

This is the result of being used to these streamlined crap RPGs
All this is a result of an unpolished product with not optimal management. Instead of focusing on important things they promoted game for having more words than War and Peace. Meanwhile, players strip before combat with robots to not take extra damage against lasers.

It bears repeating so I'll quote

This is it, this is the ultimate.

These two DBMs just moved approximately 54 grid squares, some of them diagonal (costs extra AP), in a single turn, as indicated by the large red dots (their starting points) and dotted lines. I'm in awe.

lolinxile51eg6.png

this is what people don't like, not the fact that melee enemies exist in game
 
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cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Or some people complain that enemy melee users rush them and make their snipers useless, when the game manual itself tells you to invest in a close range sidearm.

This is one frequent complaint that leaves me utterly stumped each and every time. Like, do those "gamers" realize that all you have to do is move away with your sniper two or three tiles, shoot some distant target and leave the melee attacker to your brawlers and shotgunners who usually make a short work of him? In my 80 hours of playthrough it never ever occured to me it's even remotely a problem.

And while we're at the complaints - if you read Steam or GOG forums or user reviews, half of those dimwits say game's too slow and grindy...while many of those same dolts, in the same paragraph, whine about the combat being too simplistic. Do those "people" think with their brains or their sphincters? Or are they just baaaahing the views of opinion makers, that is journos and forum blowhards (most of which are retards too)?

All I get from these comments is that there are an inordinate number of idiots that are literally forcing themselves to play oldskool TB games plastered with walls o'text even though they actually hate them, sweating and suffering the whole time and then whining on forums and in user reviews, blaming all sorts of imagined bugs and faults of said games, all the while contradicting themselves like little sad bitches they are.

Sick of it.
 

Zetor

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Zetor I'm sorry to hear that. I only have a pistol with a scope on her and before that I had a rifle and I never encountered this behaviour once. It might be a bug.

Some things I can think of though: If the clip is empty and she ha no bullets left, but you probably would have noticed that.

And, maybe just like enemy heavy gunners, if she can't move and shoot in the same round she might walk all the way up to the enemy. I have scoped pistol now, which has low AP cost for shooting and usually she just maneuvers to have a clear trajectory to the target than shoots. This is probably why Angela has a lower rate of fucking up, she has the AP and usually the gun to maneuver and shoot while Rose doesn't.

BTW, I have no leadership skill so I had the chance to see her go rogue quite a lot.
Actually that encounter was unique in that the party was being attacked from all 4 sides. So from that POV I can understand why she was running in all directions (probably after a wounded enemy off to one of the sides). She definitely had ammo for the neutron projector and had no other weapons...
 

Cyberarmy

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
All this is a result of an unpolished product with not optimal management. Instead of focusing on important things they promoted game for having more words than War and Peace. Meanwhile, players strip before combat with robots to not take extra damage against lasers.


That really simplifies early encounters against Childeren of the Citadel and some Mannerites but other than that not really helpfull. Still broken as hell though.
 

Lord Andre

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I don't want to fall into Roguey levels of fanboysm so I'll admit the game is mediocre in the polish department. And there are a minority of retarded design decisions. But they are a minority. What makes it worthy of the "classic RPG' title, is that it is in fact classic at it's core. Or grog as a retard would say. And it has soul. I can't ask for more than that.

Regarding the example above where enemies move 54 squares, I have never had this happen to me. In fact most times it takes the enemy 2 turns to get to me (heavy gunners) and they shoot on the 3rd.

I wonder if the enemy gets 2 turns in a row because he has higher initiative and the engine is set to add those 2 turns into 1 big one to cut down cycling through enemy chars. That might explain some of these occurences but it would be a retarded design decision not to inform the player about it. Still something like that might of got let behind in the code and forgot about since extreme cases where this happens would be rare.
 

Cyberarmy

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Regarding the example above where enemies move 54 squares, I have never had this happen to me. In fact most times it takes the enemy 2 turns to get to me (heavy gunners) and they shoot on the 3rd.


It happened to me in last fight, some frigging enemies moved like 5 times further than normal after skipping their turns for 3-4 times. And that was a lobber enemy...
Melted it in seconds though.
 

Shadenuat

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Russia
FFS just had all my end game companions including very important NPC rush right onto dangerous enemy with AoE attack. Almost thought I will lose everyone
AI really knows one tactic very well in this game and it's the Zerg Rush

I also lost my puppy... :( we will remember you 200 hp Prosper Junior, crushed under robot's foot
You survived much but alas

Where are the forcefield doors with Repair check when you need to save a dog from final level?!
 

Athelas

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Jun 24, 2013
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I savescummed through every check possible in the game always. Not sure if I have stronger or weaker will than Roxor and what that says about me and game design
It is better to savescum than to backtrack to finished location, I say
How do you feel about deterministic skill checks?
 

Lord Andre

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I savescummed through every check possible in the game always. Not sure if I have stronger or weaker will than Roxor and what that says about me and game design
It is better to savescum than to backtrack to finished location, I say
How do you feel about deterministic skill checks?

Deterministic checks are a modern implementation of skills, way better suited for RPGs. Percentile checks were outdated 10 years ago - they're so grog !

Am I doing it right ? :M
 

Elthosian

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FFS just had all my end game companions including very important NPC rush right onto dangerous enemy with AoE attack. Almost thought I will lose everyone
AI really knows one tactic very well in this game and it's the Zerg Rush

I also lost my puppy... :( we will remember you 200 hp Prosper Junior, crushed under robot's foot
You survived much but alas

Where are the forcefield doors with Repair check when you need to save a dog from final level?!

At least for me non-controllable allies can be kept away from frontlines if you switch to single member control, select a character you won't miss that much for that confrontation and save the game, when you load every ally will be assigned to follow that particular character so you can just leave him back while the rest of the team fights.
 

Athelas

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Deterministic checks are a modern implementation of skills, way better suited for RPGs. Percentile checks were outdated 10 years ago - they're so grog !
Am I doing it right ? :M
If this was supposed to be a mocking impersonation of someone who dislikes chance-based skill checks, it would make more sense in a thread where the posters didn't confess to savescumming right through them. :M
 

Shadenuat

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I'm not sure where you got this impression that we are somehow malicious liars who want to mislead players.
I'm not sure where you got the impression that I got that impression somewhere. Descriptions lie because they do not tell the truth, or do not tell all the truth. It's just a fact.

Based on reading various forums the last week or two, I think part of this sentiment overall is that bug above, and part is players getting upset when enemies built for high speed and initiative get the drop on them, because they're used to turtling behind cover and think that because enemies don't adopt the same play-style
Players get upset, and I can see why, because AI is not very good, and does strange things in combat, like running from one character to another wasting AP, zerg rushing party in clusters through whole screen, and that makes combat not very controllable, and in turn, not very tactical. That and bloated HPs often resolve in party running back and forth like crazy chickens instead of relying on solid tactics.
Overall combat in game is just not very tactical. Big problem are, of course, bugs. You can't create good tactic if you don't even know if you will have LOS to enemy, for example.
Also the speeds are just way too high. That problem existed in one old russian fallout-like, where instead of adopting Fallout's 10 AP system, it allowed for 20 and more. Robots rushing from corners and unloading miniguns onto party and all that.
Level sizes and perspective also don't play well with that. Levels are big, but often not very interesting or complex, sometimes rather empty.

Also, turtling in game works fine. Especially in the endgame. Take Scorpitron, for example. That enemy can be taken out with only 2 characters - I'd say a Brawler & Energy Medic. They crouch behind barrells, brawler catches small scorps, energy medic slowly chunks 3000 hp away while using extra AP to heal Brawler. If Scorpitron had ability to move around the battlefield, crushing cover and hitting characters, it would be a interesting and dangerous fight. But instead it's more like a MMO fight. Kill adds while healing through. Very easy.
The last fight after elevator is also super turtly. There are ~20 robots there but their AI is not that super, so you can slowly get them one after another with a sniper. And of course area is sooo huge, enemies don't even know what to do. Like Mattheas during my fight and all his bodyguards just sat there doing nothing while some random bots from map corners were rushing me. So long, and so boring.

Where combat shines in this game is when you're at least somewhat underleveled. When you storm Red Scorpions just right after first missions, or first fights against Nuns, or robots once you arrive in LA. Or the whole plane graveyard - probably the most excellent area in the game challenge-wise, with many new and fresh enemies, turrets and entrances and even a hostage situation and an ambush.

I hope you're better than to put blame for holes in design on some fictional psychological player's schtick. If players don't feel that they have good control over flow of combat, change things.
Tweak speeds of enemies that should not be very fast, like big gunners.
Make speeds slower on average, since maps are already too big.
The camera is not great, in general you can't even understand what enemy was built for. I would never have guessed that that amazing art with synth in a wheel chair would be used not for big and beautiful NPC model, but for a trash mob in endgame fortress-of-regrets-run with size of a cockroach.
Tweak enemy names maybe, designs, make faster enemies more lean, give them different animations.
It's too late to change how maps were done, but in future you should strive for more compact maps with more sets and less open spaces. I am going to get soo much shit for this, but... check, say, raider's fortress map in Fallout Tactics. Compare it's architecture with some of yours, especially RSM leader's fort - that fort is just a bunch of empty, poorely textured boxes with just a single entrance. I don't know how to put it better, but it's like the difference between city of Baldur's Gate and Athkatla/Sigil. The first one is larger and argualbly a lot more realistic with it's 10 taverns in one fantasy city, but that does not achieve much. Second has tighter levels but content is spread out better. That way of design can not, and should not be applied to just quests, but to geography too. It's better to make one interesting small set than many big, uninteristing ones. The example of that poor design is Rail Nomad's camp. Nothing there uses it's size for gameplay advantage. It's not even that heavy combat area, unless you're just murdering everything.

Overall level design for combat is all over the place. Sometimes there's something, but often you just stand in the open, party clustered together, kicking enemy melee's as they come to you, shooting and healing, enemies getting rekked one after another without any thinking.


Side note:
I'm butthurt I never met a crab in a phone booth enemy.
 
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Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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sea said:
I'm not sure where you got this impression that we are somehow malicious liars who want to mislead players.

Extrapolation of the century right here bro. Shadenuat is attacking you for poor documentation.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Though again, it'd be awesome to see some examples so that I can pass 'em on to be looked at. It is worth noting that we're already looking at ways to address that in future updates so I think those suggestions would fit right in.

Fair enough, I can understand why it is pretty useless criticism without practical examples.
 

Shadenuat

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AI is not meant to fight "perfectly"
But it should follow the design of an enemy it is attached too. Your AI is far from perfect, and I'd say making it more perfect would not hurt. Enemies do not use cover that well. Grenadiers can get stuck in throwing explosive into one spot never hitting anything at all - while player's explosions never miss (ambush on farm with ~12 synths in LA, left robot with grenades). AI sometimes blows itself up or shoots through it's own ranks, even killing his own. Your own companions shoot through your characters, and "green" NPCs shoot through each other. Machine gunners and assault specialists, when out of range, use all of their AP to reach party and get blown away standing in the open or "hiding in cover" right in front of your party, instead of using superior positioning. Overall, AI likes to switch modes between a combat virgin that runs from one cover to another or sits forever behind obstacle waiting, or village idiot/kamikaze.

There may be situations where terrain is not properly occluding sight or being treated as cover - I'd be happy to take a look at these if you have any specific examples you can screenshot and PM my way
I don't remember where I've seen it, but I'll be damned if it actually was a hentai/strategy game, the one with furries. In that game when you hovered mouse over any creature on the battlefield or use any spell it lighted up every tile around character where he can go or where he has LOS. Oh right it was Utawarerumono and I think it worked for spells&movement. Since you have squares I think system like that could work. Some sort of an awesome button that allows you to see enemy's LOS.

Also, fight with RSM if you attack the debt collector near begging woman, big blue building. Oh my god, that building.

Another thing that could be useful is if when you hover mouse over enemy to shoot him, you get either what damage you will make or maybe some sort of shield/nekked icon if he is armored/not armored (I believe new X-COM had that). Would help greatly when you want to know if you want to use energy weapon or a sidearm. There probably is some way of knowing it but all enemies in endgame have about the same armor (6-7), and enemy types do not help at all. Like badgers. They're animals so not armored right. WRONG. Burn like fries with appropriate amount of plasma.

some who think melee should be useless as a primary skill and guns should dominate, while others think the exact opposite, that melee should always be viable
Wait, how is that even a debate. Every type of weapon skill should be viable through whole game, even if not every skill should be as easy to use as another skill. For example, if melee worked best with Stealth, but less so without it, that would have been a good compromise... if game had stealth.

In Wasteland 2 you can really only max 1 weapon skill, since there are many skills to cover. You can get multiple weapon skills, like energy weapons + something since EW is a fairly useless skill and only improves chance to hit that is already great, especially with weapon mods; but for melee, you want melee skill be maxed out. It's not a system where you can leave some Knifefighting skill at average and it would continue to be viable any time you get ambushed by someone in a melee. You want crits and chance to hit in melee. Plus, character build for melee is radically different from any other - combat speed is paramount there. You can't make players waste stats on melee build and also make melee skill shit.
 
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