Game News Whalenought Studios reveal their next RPG - Copper Dreams

[Sensuki]

Interface design should end up being a lot more appealing. That's one of the things that I'm providing feedback on at the moment.

 

[Excidium II]

What they managed with the limitation of the microscopic resolution in SITS was p. commendable in any case.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah I'm hoping that the end result ends up being a nice blend of old school visuals with modernized usability.

 

[Ellef]

They really need to hit Kickstarter with this. All the lessons learned from SitS + sci-fi turnbased and modern resolutions and UI? You're going to get quite a few backers at the upper tiers.

 

[Galdred]

The time resolution sounds a lot like Titans of Steel : Warring suns.
you got one unit to move, assigned it an action (like turn 60, aim, shoot, move 1 step...) then the next unit finishing its action from both side could act again.
This system was both great and atrocious : aiming was done right : if you aimed for a longer time than the opponent, he would be the first to shoot, but shooting first and missing was even worse.
The problem was that the action was really cut in too small pieces.

I thought pixel art was a gimmick initially (when the trend started), but it certainly makes sense when you have limited resources. I'm no artist but Whalenought_Joe could probably tell you that it's much quicker to create graphics at that resolution than super-mega-HD. Also, HD shows all the blemishes. I'd much rather good quality pixel-art (and I thought SitS looked great) than poor quality HD.

Actually, good quality pixel-art can be more expensive than hand drawn at higher resolutions :
128 pixel characters are very expensive, and 64 somewhat lack details.
It can look good at *2 and even *4 resolution, but anything beyond is really pushing it.

 

[Sensuki]

The time resolution sounds a lot like Titans of Steel : Warring suns.
you got one unit to move, assigned it an action (like turn 60, aim, shoot, move 1 step...) then the next unit finishing its action from both side could act again.
This system was both great and atrocious : aiming was done right : if you aimed for a longer time than the opponent, he would be the first to shoot, but shooting first and missing was even worse.
The problem was that the action was really cut in too small pieces.

Can you explain this a bit more (and the problems). I don't want to say too much but the way actions are currently designed is they have uniform execution times with coarse granularity. Subject to change though I suppose but I like how they've set things up so far.

edit:

Because not many games have used this system before (and not really any well-known ones) it's technically kind of an uncharted waters using a system that has discrete unit turns with simultaneous resolution (not phases, but staggered times where unit turns take place).

There are some of the big turn-based combat 'features' such as combat stopping completely when one of your units is ready to perform their turn, and absolutely no time-critical element, and the absolution of a turn. In turn-based once you have performed your turn - that is it, you can't correct it whereas in real-time(/with pause) you can correct your actions. The weight of that is different here because it has the same absolution, but the unit action plays out simultaneously with others.

I think it is important that the game plays to the strengths of this medium and one of the challenges will be identifying what the strengths of the medium actually are, as they aren't really obvious because of the limited number of titles with a similar system. Then it's a matter of taking advantage of it, and making it fun.

How a discrete turn interacts with time-based execution is obviously the main unique element here. You make a finite choice and then you watch it play out in real-time. As an example, you may select to throw a grenade at a certain square on your turn, but by the time you've thrown it and it goes off, will the enemies still be near the area of impact ? Will you have to predict whether they are going to move or not?

That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see become a consideration, anyway.

 

[ArchAngel]

Hmm that sounds like Birth of the Federation combat system. You gave orders to all your ships on your turn and press end turn and then watched in real time the battle happen for 5-6 seconds until it was time to give new orders to everyone.

That is also how Endless Legend combat works as well. Well kind of, they have unit initiative that plays a factor instead of timed executions.

 

[Sensuki]

ArchAngel, if you've played that game extensively how did you feel about the combat?

 

[ArchAngel]

I loved it in both, although combat mastery in Endless Legend comes down to knowing which unit is going to act first and preparing actions for those that come after them so they get killed before or somehow disabled.
Once you click end turn and it all starts playing out for those with no mastery it will look very confusing and sometimes unfair. I know noobs complained a lot about EL combat

Birth of the Federation was more old school and didn't give you info about enemy actions so you kind of guessed only or played by experience and knowing how strong your ships are compared to theirs.

 

[Surf Solar]

Meh, hope the graphics aren't dogshit tier this time.

Graphics are different in this one - not rendered at 400x300 or whatever. I believe source assets will be 1920x1080. 3D world/2D characters.

Oh great, so the crybabies are responsible that the unique style to do games has been replaced with another 3d game.

 

[Sensuki]

I believe the art style is jRPG inspired (2D characters, 3D world) but it won't look like a jRPG. TBH I think they just wanted to do something different as the last few games they've done have been pixel art so ...

(also from what I've seen, the art style doesn't look like your standard popamole 3D - it's stylized and I really like the look of it even at the not even remotely fleshed out stage that it is in - have some faith in Joe man )

 

[likaq]

Oh great, so the crybabies are responsible that the unique style to do games has been replaced with another 3d game.

Good to know that dogshit early 90's gfx = unique style to do games.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

This is cool. Want more.

 

[PeachPlumage]

So, Titans of Steel : Warring suns has combat similar to Faselei!? (Neo-Geo Pocket Color) Pardon my stupid question I have just woken up.

 

[mindx2]

Jaesun seems like this is exactly what was on your cRPG wishlist. Did you play SitS?

 

[roshan]

Next game? Did they fix SitS yet?

Serpent in the Staglands runs perfectly well and is mostly bug free at this point.

 

[roshan]

Oh great, so the crybabies are responsible that the unique style to do games has been replaced with another 3d game.

Copper Dreams should actually be pretty unique because it combines the strengths of both 2D and 3D. The camera is fixed, so there's no pointless rotating, functionally gameplay should be just the same as in a 2D isometric game. Whereas since it's actually 3D, there's stuff like an interesting stealth system based on line of sight, and the z axis allowing stuff like grappling hooks to get up buildings, scaling walls, jumping from one building to the other, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Updated my secret_whalenought_focus_group_members_list.txt

 

[mindx2]

Updated my secret_whalenought_focus_group_members_list.txt

I just don't know how much info Whalenought_Joe wants out there so I'm not saying much...

 

[Scroo]

Great news but I really hope this time the game has a better map system instead of just a zoom out function

 

[Galdred]

Can you explain this a bit more (and the problems). I don't want to say too much but the way actions are currently designed is they have uniform execution times with coarse granularity. Subject to change though I suppose but I like how they've set things up so far.

I will try but it is a bit unusual

let's say we are at the turn 3:46 (it might be something else entirely as I didn't play this in years).
It is your combat turn. You order your mech to lock on target. It takes 0:05, so your mech perform its action, and will get to play again at turn 3:51.
Note that movement and combat were distinct, so you could have a move turn right after, at 3:47, and order to dash forward, an action with a duration of 0:03, which would take you to turn 3:50
So the sequence would be :
3:46 : combat phase : mech locks on target. Cooldown of 0:05
Then other units that are scheduled to act on 3:46 also get their turn
then 3:47 : movement phase : mech dashes 1 hex. Cooldown of 0:03
Other units that end their action cooldown between 3:47 and 3:50 get to act
Then 3:50 : movement phase : mech swivel right. Cooldown of 0:03
Then other units that are scheduled to act on 3:50 also get their turn
3:51 : mechs get to choose another combat action...
With mechs, it made the action a bit hard too "split", as you were constantly jumping from one to another, and could not do much at the same time, but it allowed a much finer time allocation of actions.

edit:

Because not many games have used this system before (and not really any well-known ones) it's technically kind of an uncharted waters using a system that has discrete unit turns with simultaneous resolution (not phases, but staggered times where unit turns take place).

There are some of the big turn-based combat 'features' such as combat stopping completely when one of your units is ready to perform their turn, and absolutely no time-critical element, and the absolution of a turn. In turn-based once you have performed your turn - that is it, you can't correct it whereas in real-time(/with pause) you can correct your actions. The weight of that is different here because it has the same absolution, but the unit action plays out simultaneously with others.

I think it is important that the game plays to the strengths of this medium and one of the challenges will be identifying what the strengths of the medium actually are, as they aren't really obvious because of the limited number of titles with a similar system. Then it's a matter of taking advantage of it, and making it fun.

How a discrete turn interacts with time-based execution is obviously the main unique element here. You make a finite choice and then you watch it play out in real-time. As an example, you may select to throw a grenade at a certain square on your turn, but by the time you've thrown it and it goes off, will the enemies still be near the area of impact ? Will you have to predict whether they are going to move or not?

That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see become a consideration, anyway.

So ti sounds more like Frozen Synpase/Laser Squad Genesis/Combat Mission/ Knights of Legend then.
If so, I think it is very hard to make melee work well with such ruleset, as you have to predict the location of your target very accurately (or have a lot of complicated rules to let your melee guy not act in a retarded way during the execution phase), but it can work rather well with guns.

 

[Mustawd]

Updated my secret_whalenought_focus_group_members_list.txt

Seriously. Focus group be dropping all kinds of info.

 

[Jaesun]

Jaesun seems like this is exactly what was on your cRPG wishlist. Did you play SitS?

Oh yes, this setting is exactly the kind of stuff I love. Just bring on the Kickstarter...



And no, I have not played SitS yet, I have such a huge backlog of games to play :/ But it is on my list.

 

[Mustawd]

So ti sounds more like Frozen Synpase/Laser Squad Genesis/Combat Mission/ Knights of Legend then.
If so, I think it is very hard to make melee work well with such ruleset, as you have to predict the location of your target very accurately (or have a lot of complicated rules to let your melee guy not act in a retarded way during the execution phase), but it can work rather well with guns.

I was under the impression that that kind of system worked well in KOL? At least that was the impression when I read crpgaddict's blog posts on it.

Combat is the highlight of the game: extremely tactical, with options that we don't see in any other games to date. I love the ability to anticipate the enemy's actions, to choose from a variety of attack and defense types depending on the circumstances, and to use the terrain to the advantage of the party.

 

[Galdred]

I was under the impression that that kind of system worked well in KOL? At least that was the impression when I read crpgaddict's blog posts on it.

Actully, I found the combat interesting, but weird from a conceptual point of view :
You had to predict where the opponent would be to land a hit, so a good part of your archer attacks depended on your guessing where the AI would move (there was an anticipation stat that allowed you to give order last, and act before or something like that, though).
I would have expected predicting where to aim to hit your opponent would be part of the archery or melee skill instead (granted, this could have been done with the same base system. Just have archers not be retarded, and shoot at target current location, while melee fighters could move 1 step to catch up with target, and attack).
Another problem is that in order to have the board change too much, movement was 1 (or 2, I didn't play for quite a long time) steps at a time, which made approaching opponents very tedious.
It kind of worked, but I think the classic flow of turn based game is a bit more "natural" (even though I have always loved the concept of simultaneous turn execution).