What are the best CCGs?

[Jason Liang]

Yugioh 2023 World Championships

 

[Jason Liang]

Master Duel players have gone crazy over

I : P Masquerena variant art

 

[PapaPetro]

This is one of them.

 

[ind33d]

you could play duel masters on tabletop simulator for ten minutes and figure out it's the best card game

 

[NoSoup4you]

I bought singles for a competitive Battle Spirits Saga deck, but it might be dying already lol. In other news, went to Columbus for Shadowfist nationals, and got screwed out of first place by the timer of course. Second in Classic, second in draft, second in multiple VTES side events... Fuuuuuck.

 

[Jason Liang]

Second in multiplayer is still very good.

 

[Dr1f7]

Yugioh 2023 World Championships

it's cool that duel links has the holograms like the anime
master duel doesn't have that

 

[Serus]

Possibly already mentioned, INWO (the CCG version) by Steve Jackson.



https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1552/illuminati-new-world-order

Twenty years dead and never alive for a long time. Rules have many holes. However the most hilarious theme and funniest cards. Would highly recommended if it wasn't, as mentioned, dead.

 

[Jason Liang]

Ugh. Homeliest Serra Angel ever!

Looked up the artist Jodie Muir.

It's a self-portrait O_o
Black Chantry should commission her to do some pieces for VtES

 

[Jason Liang]

... David Simon is getting his own Magic card!

 

[Dadd]

Those cards are hideous.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

I bought singles for a competitive Battle Spirits Saga deck, but it might be dying already lol. In other news, went to Columbus for Shadowfist nationals, and got screwed out of first place by the timer of course. Second in Classic, second in draft, second in multiple VTES side events... Fuuuuuck.

How well did that turn out for you? BSS was still born wasn't it? Bandai keep fucking up so hard in their other games.

Those cards are hideous.

Welcome to modern TCGs..

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

There are no good CCGs. All of them are based on a highly-flawed business model that undermines the gameplay balance, making them absolutely unplayable.

 

[pakoito]

There are no good CCGs. All of them are based on a highly-flawed business model that undermines the gameplay balance, making them absolutely unplayable.

Sure. What's a non-CCG that's good? Either boardgame or living card game?

 

[spectre]

There are no good CCGs. All of them are based on a highly-flawed business model that undermines the gameplay balance, making them absolutely unplayable.

Sure. What's a non-CCG that's good? Either boardgame or living card game?

Most of the LCG's I've tried were decent - netrunner, conquest, L5R, arkham horror, but they also eventually died out.
Turns out the ccg model, for what it's worth, works for longevity and competitive play.
However, it's still possible to use them as "boardgames" and they are really fun with people who can do good banter.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

Turns out the ccg model, for what it's worth, works for longevity and competitive play.

Not really.

The CCG business model frequently results in card bans for overpowered cards, pay-to-win scenarios where highly sought after cards sell for thousands, and other shenanigans. I have even seen "splits" where some tournaments allow some cards while others don't and it divides the community and results in a lot of "unofficial" competitions.

Obviously you can't patch a physical game once it's released, but if your product is a simple board game or some other sort of "sell once" product, the incentive is to balance it as much as possible upfront because you need to sell a complete product that's enjoyable.

With the CCG model the idea is to sell booster packs, so you need to be constantly releasing new content, which bloats the game and makes balance almost impossible. Hence bans etc.

Modern "live service" games suffer from the same problems actually, because they use the same (shitty) business model.

The most successful competitive games (and the ones with the best longevity) have always been ones which are sold as one-off products - Counter Strike, StarCraft, etc. The same is true of physical games, which is why Chess will always be more popular than MTG, even if MTG has more interesting mechanics.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

The most successful competitive games (and the ones with the best longevity) have always been ones which are sold as one-off products - Counter Strike, StarCraft, etc. The same is true of physical games, which is why Chess will always be more popular than MTG, even if MTG has more interesting mechanics.

You don't seem to understand LCGs and TCGs. LCGs become unwieldy in ways TCGs don't, TCGs can always make a new limited format while LCGs rely on large single products they can't repeatedly print. So you end up with expansion 2 of 8 having some great cards but no way to buy them for players just getting into the game. They're much higher risk products than a constant rotation.

Counter strike wasn't a one-off product, it was a mod for Half-life 1. It's more akin to MTG's commander than MTG it's self.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

You don't seem to understand LCGs and TCGs. LCGs become unwieldy in ways TCGs don't, TCGs can always make a new limited format while LCGs rely on large single products they can't repeatedly print. So you end up with expansion 2 of 8 having some great cards but no way to buy them for players just getting into the game.

It's all the same crap.

 

[Jason Liang]

LCGs simply don't generate enough profit for game stores to carry and promote them.

For example, compare Black Chantry's economic model. Black Chantry publishes VtES, print on demand so basically similar to LCGs. However, BC does most sales direct to player base, cutting out game stores. Let's say VtES has a player base of 50,000 players (I would say that is a fair estimate). BC sells VtES cards at basically 35 cents per card. If BC puts out $200 of new product a year (~500-600 cards) that is a profit of $10 milliion a year, divided among the 4 partners - even after expenses that is easily $1-2 million.

Now let' look at it from a game store's perspective. A game store basically needs to sell $2000 worth of product each month for a card game to be worth carrying and promoting- their cut is 50% so $2000 of sales is $1000 of profit, $10,000-$12,000 annual. If a card game has a local community of 20 players (which is a lot), the store would need each player to purchase a $100 booster box each month to generate enough sales. A LCG that is sold in $20 -$25 packs each month would need a playerbase of 80-100 players per store to make that game worth carrying and promoting.

BTW this is all from Team Covenant - they run a game store in Tulsa, Oklahoma and have a weekly podcast where they discuss these issues.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Now let' look at it from a game store's perspective. A game store basically needs to sell $2000 worth of product each month for a card game to be worth carrying and promoting- their cut is 50% so $2000 of sales is $1000 of profit, $10,000-$12,000 annual. If a card game has a local community of 20 players (which is a lot), the store would need each player to purchase a $100 booster box each month to generate enough sales. A LCG that is sold in $20 -$25 packs each month would need a playerbase of 80-100 players per store to make that game worth carrying and promoting.

Your maths are kind of wrong here because they don't have to sell a booster box each month to profit off a player. Most games are on a 3 month cycle but any serious player is going to be buying singles any way or stores have to compete with online prices (they can't). Supporting a game in the current year isn't about selling product, the product is mostly prize support. Players pay a fee to play in the weekly event, buys some sleeves, maybe a few dice and snacks and it all adds up to more than a booster box a month. Especially if having them in your store makes them purchase some warhammer or a board game. It's weird but game stores have taken on a impulse buying business model for profits rather than selling product as intended. They want you in store paying for FNM and want you to impulse buy other crap to make money. It's why every successful game store these days is more of a social hub with almost no space dedicated to the games they host events for but there's walls and walls of board games or (Allah forgive us) funko pops.

 

[Dadd]

MECCG is probably the best CCG

 

[Jason Liang]

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I wish Yugioh didnt become "summon 5k attack monster in 2nd turn" kind of game it is today'

 

[Jason Liang]

I wish Yugioh didnt become "summon 5k attack monster in 2nd turn" kind of game it is today'

It's not...
Modern Yugioh is about summoning 3-4 2-3k attack monsters, each of whom either destroy/banish the opponents cards or negate their cards/ effects.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Jason Liang

What CCG is still alive these days online? YGO Master Link, MTG, Snap, Shadowverse, Runeterra? Anything else?