What cau$ed the decline?

[MRY]

Three things jump out at me in looking at the Troika sales figures:
(1) My, how pricing has changed. Troika grossed $37.61 per copy of Arcanum sold! I am skeptical the average price point for any RPG these days is anything like that; I assume that for them, as for other things, most of the sales happen during 50% or 75% discount periods on Steam.

(2) Arcanum grossed several million dollars more than T:TON raised on Kickstarter. Now one hopes that for the big KSer RPGs, the total sales wind up far exceeding what they raised on KSer, but that still struck me as an interesting data point, given that "the titles simply failed to generate enough revenue for the studio to survive."

(3) The Bloodlines sales seemed ludicrously low, but it had not been out for very long when those sales figures were released: November release, February article. Even taking that into account, though, it's remarkable; Bloodlines is a great game and a super accessible one. If I were trying to ease someone from, say, Mass Effect into more complicated RPGs, Bloodlines might be the best bridge. I guess a buggy release -- and a non-fantasy setting -- really hurts.

 

[Cadmus]

Jesus, those Troika sales numbers are ridiculously low, considering Bloodlines alone was about 30 times better than Skyrim which has sold 20m.
Is there any account of the troika games sold till now that they are actually considered classics?

Bloodlines had multiple game breaking bugs in it. Most people would consider a game you can actually finish to be better than one you can't.

There is no word on Bloodlines, but for Arcanum and ToEE you can look at this all time best selling: http://www.gog.com/games##sort=bestselling&page=1?as=1649904300

Witcher 2 sold a minimum of 40k copies on Gog, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher_2:_Assassins_of_Kings#Sales. So ToEE is somewhere north of 40k and Arcanum somewhere south. Exact numbers unknown, but since they're all listed so close I can't imagine there are large differences. Also, it's pretty much guaranteed that W2 is more than 40k now.

I remember not being able to finish Skyrim due to a bugged dialogue and upon restarting, due to a severe case of boredom whereas I finished Bloodlines so there's that

But seeing all these numbers, I'm surprised, I thought most of these games were selling in almost millions. That just shows how uninformed I'm.

 

[MRY]

Vault Dweller: Do you still feel:

Arcanum is a Hall of Fame - type game that will be remembered and recommended just like we recommend Darklands today. Bloodlines will be forgotten soon.

If not, is it because Bloodlines improved with patching? [I'm not asking whether you think, as a factual matter, Bloodlines has been forgotten, obviously it hasn't -- even on the Codex top-70 list, it's only one slot behind Arcanum. I mean your relative evaluation of the two games.]

 

[mondblut]

Well, take a lot at the games from Nintendo and Sega during those days. The 8-bit Nintendo had many of the early RPGs ranging from Wizardry, Ultima, Gold Box series, wide range of blobers, etc... Sega was a bit weaker in that selection, but they were always a bit light in the Western RPG area. Even 16-bit carried that trend on, though admittedly it was less in the numbers as the 8-bit days. Now a lot of those PC game ports were pretty weak, but... they existed

Back in 80s games were being ported to everything from ZX Spectrum to the abacus. When I browse entries for some of my old PC favorites on MobyGames, I encounter the versions for the computer models I never even heard of. That hardly changes the nature of the medium itself, because...

much of the early console days were simply put... "Arcade" systems trying to bring the 70s/80s arcade joints to the home living room. Atari, Colecovision, intellivision, etc... all "arcade" systems in truth.

Exactly. And you don't play a smart man's game on an arcade system.

 

[Xenich]

Bloodlines had multiple game breaking bugs in it. Most people would consider a game you can actually finish to be better than one you can't.

I don't remember being unable to finish the game and I picked it up on release. Same with ToEE, there were a couple of bugs, but none that caused me to be unable to finish the game. /shrug

 

[tuluse]

I don't remember being unable to finish the game and I picked it up on release. Same with ToEE, there were a couple of bugs, but none that caused me to be unable to finish the game. /shrug

I'm not 100% sure since I didn't play it until well after release, but I remember hearing that it was impossible to finish on release day. Are you sure you didn't patch it at all?

 

[tuluse]

Three things jump out at me in looking at the Troika sales figures:
(1) My, how pricing has changed. Troika grossed $37.61 per copy of Arcanum sold! I am skeptical the average price point for any RPG these days is anything like that; I assume that for them, as for other things, most of the sales happen during 50% or 75% discount periods on Steam.

You don't think Bethesda or Bioware is grossing about that much with starting prices of $60 a copy and DLC on top of that?

Also, all the major KS did about $40 per backer and that was with selling a copies for as low as $15-25 dollars.

 

[Xenich]

I don't remember being unable to finish the game and I picked it up on release. Same with ToEE, there were a couple of bugs, but none that caused me to be unable to finish the game. /shrug

I'm not 100% sure since I didn't play it until well after release, but I remember hearing that it was impossible to finish on release day. Are you sure you didn't patch it at all?

It has been a while, it may have had a patch, but having a patch right at release isn't really an issue. That may be why I don't remember.

 

[Infinitron]

Three things jump out at me in looking at the Troika sales figures:
(1) My, how pricing has changed. Troika grossed $37.61 per copy of Arcanum sold! I am skeptical the average price point for any RPG these days is anything like that; I assume that for them, as for other things, most of the sales happen during 50% or 75% discount periods on Steam.

People still buy things at high prices in console land (another reason why they're popular!)

 

[tuluse]

I remember not being able to finish Skyrim due to a bugged dialogue and upon restarting, due to a severe case of boredom whereas I finished Bloodlines so there's that

But seeing all these numbers, I'm surprised, I thought most of these games were selling in almost millions. That just shows how uninformed I'm.

The only Interplay RPGs that went above 1 million are BG 1 and 2. PST was about 400k when it was in stores. Fallout 1 was between 200-300k. Fallout 2 probably did better but I don't know the numbers. Sawyer said the IWD games were few hundred thousand probably again about 200k.

 

[tuluse]

It has been a while, it may have had a patch, but having a patch right at release isn't really an issue. That may be why I don't remember.

It is back in 2004 when auto-forced patches weren't a thing and you are relying on reviewers playing with even buggier early code and word of mouth.

 

[Xenich]

Well, take a lot at the games from Nintendo and Sega during those days. The 8-bit Nintendo had many of the early RPGs ranging from Wizardry, Ultima, Gold Box series, wide range of blobers, etc... Sega was a bit weaker in that selection, but they were always a bit light in the Western RPG area. Even 16-bit carried that trend on, though admittedly it was less in the numbers as the 8-bit days. Now a lot of those PC game ports were pretty weak, but... they existed

Back in 80s games were being ported to everything from ZX Spectrum to the abacus. When I browse entries for some of my old PC favorites on MobyGames, I encounter the versions for the computer models I never even heard of. That hardly changes the nature of the medium itself, because...

much of the early console days were simply put... "Arcade" systems trying to bring the 70s/80s arcade joints to the home living room. Atari, Colecovision, intellivision, etc... all "arcade" systems in truth.

Exactly. And you don't play a smart man's game on an arcade system.

Not arguing that point, I always viewed the consoles as just advanced versions of a pong unit. That said, the point was when the "console mentality" came about. When I say that mentality, I am not talking about arcade gamers, I mean... few of the kids today could handle the old arcade games. They think Dark souls is a "hardcore game". Try beating dragons lair or the numerous other arcade games that required a perfect execution throughout the levels or you had to start all over again. The console mentality was when they started chasing after the lame who wanted to be entertained, not play a game. That began with dumbing systems down which was more apparent during the PS and on days.

 

[MRY]

You don't think Bethesda or Bioware is grossing about that much with starting prices of $60 a copy and DLC on top of that?

No, not even close, because the overwhelming majority of their sales are not at full value. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Check out Steam Charts for Mass Effect or Dragon Age: Origins. Those later peaks represent when the game became steeply discounted on Steam (say, for Christmas, or Summer, or Black Friday). I would hazard that most customers paid $20 or less for those games. I'm sure those companies still sell more full-priced copies than Troika did, but the full-priced sales get swamped by discounted sales, pushing the average price down.

 

[Xenich]

It has been a while, it may have had a patch, but having a patch right at release isn't really an issue. That may be why I don't remember.

It is back in 2004 when auto-forced patches weren't a thing and you are relying on reviewers playing with even buggier early code and word of mouth.

Like I said, I had an internet connection, downloading a patch really didn't phase me. I mean, sure... I can see people thumbing their nose as such an occurrence, but.. well.. throwing a tantrum because they had to patch? That has narcissistic written all over it. Like I said, it must have not have been a big deal as I don't remember being upset about it enough to have reserved space for it in my memory.

 

[tuluse]

No, not even close, because the overwhelming majority of their sales are not at full value. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Check out Steam Charts for Mass Effect or Dragon Age: Origins. Those later peaks represent when the game became steeply discounted on Steam (say, for Christmas, or Summer, or Black Friday). I would hazard that most customers paid $20 or less for those games. I'm sure those companies still sell more full-priced copies than Troika did, but the full-priced sales get swamped by discounted sales, pushing the average price down.

Unfortunately, Steam is not at all a good measure of how EA is selling something. Unless you think Skyrim outsold DA:O by a factor of 30.

http://steamcharts.com/app/72850#All

Skryim launches out of the gate with 55k peak players, and then peaks again at 67k in Jan 2013 and and 78k in Dec 2013.

It was still selling for $30 per copy in Jan 2013, but did have steep discounts by Dec (down to $7.50).

 

[tuluse]

Like I said, I had an internet connection, downloading a patch really didn't phase me. I mean, sure... I can see people thumbing their nose as such an occurrence, but.. well.. throwing a tantrum because they had to patch? That has narcissistic written all over it. Like I said, it must have not have been a big deal as I don't remember being upset about it enough to have reserved space for it in my memory.

It's not people throwing a tantrum, they might not realize there was a patch at all.

 

[Xenich]

Like I said, I had an internet connection, downloading a patch really didn't phase me. I mean, sure... I can see people thumbing their nose as such an occurrence, but.. well.. throwing a tantrum because they had to patch? That has narcissistic written all over it. Like I said, it must have not have been a big deal as I don't remember being upset about it enough to have reserved space for it in my memory.

It's not people throwing a tantrum, they might not realize there was a patch at all.

Why wouldn't they know? First thing I always did even back then was to check the site for a patch, update, etc.... It is standard practice for anyone computer literate back then. It is just what you did.

 

[tuluse]

Why wouldn't they know? First thing I always did even back then was to check the site for a patch, update, etc.... It is standard practice for anyone computer literate back then. It is just what you did.

And then he finally comes to realization he doesn't represent every person in the world.

 

[MRY]

Unfortunately, Steam is not at all a good measure of how EA is selling something.

Oh, good point. But I suppose that all sales portals exhibit similar behavior.

Skryim launches out of the gate with 55k peak players, and then peaks again at 67k in Jan 2013 and and 78k in Dec 2013.

It was still selling for $30 per copy in Jan 2013, but did have steep discounts by Dec (down to $7.50).

Because people put so many hours into ES games, it's a little harder to read the charts. But, again, the game has been selling for $5, $7.50, $10, $15 in various sales for years. I suspect at least half of their units were moved at that price point.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

What caused the decline?

Humanity.

 

[Xenich]

Why wouldn't they know? First thing I always did even back then was to check the site for a patch, update, etc.... It is standard practice for anyone computer literate back then. It is just what you did.

And then he finally comes to realization he doesn't represent every person in the world.

well, here is the thing. If you don't know the most basic aspects of computers, you have no fucking business using them. If people were so fucking pathetically stupid that they didn't understand the idea of patching maintenance in 2004? Well.. they were computer illiterate morons who should have stuck to playing their fucking consoles.

I mean seriously, XP was out already for 3 fucking years and it came with a special patching utility to faciliate updates. What fucking moron didn't know that back then? Were they so ridiculously stupid that the idea didn't even occur as it concerns a game?

Seriously, why was there a decline?

You have the answer.... Stupid fucking people.

 

[GloomFrost]

I don't remember being unable to finish the game and I picked it up on release. Same with ToEE, there were a couple of bugs, but none that caused me to be unable to finish the game. /shrug

I'm not 100% sure since I didn't play it until well after release, but I remember hearing that it was impossible to finish on release day. Are you sure you didn't patch it at all?

People really exaggerate the bugs Bloodlines had. Unpatched bloodlines had just one serious bug that could stop you from finishing the game. The game crushed when you were getting back from the Leopold vampire hunters base. Thats it. And it could be fixed by one simple console command. Also how can people call Bloodlines buggy and glitchy after Gothic 3 or Dead State??

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller: Do you still feel:

Arcanum is a Hall of Fame - type game that will be remembered and recommended just like we recommend Darklands today. Bloodlines will be forgotten soon.

If not, is it because Bloodlines improved with patching? [I'm not asking whether you think, as a factual matter, Bloodlines has been forgotten, obviously it hasn't -- even on the Codex top-70 list, it's only one slot behind Arcanum. I mean your relative evaluation of the two games.]

Kinda.

As an RPG Bloodlines kinda sucks. The focus on combat ruined it and the illusion that you can play it as a non-combat character, using all these awesome non-combat skills and abilities, doesn't last long. The lack of inventory doesn't help either. Plus it's linear as fuck, filled with endless action sequences (I played it twice, I would replay it more but the thought of doing the hotel run again and escaping the burning house again keeps me from doing it).

However, it's a very atmospheric game with great voice-over and writing. The abilities are also well implemented and for awhile you can play the game in very different ways.

 

[Xenich]

However, it's a very atmospheric game with great voice-over and writing. The abilities are also well implemented and for awhile you can play the game in very different ways.

Yeah, for me, it felt more like an FPS adventure/action game than an RPG for many of the reasons you mentioned.

 

[tuluse]

People really exaggerate the bugs Bloodlines had. Unpatched bloodlines had just one serious bug that could stop you from finishing the game. The game crushed when you were getting back from the Leopold vampire hunters base. Thats it. And it could be fixed by one simple console command. Also how can people call Bloodlines buggy and glitchy after Gothic 3 or Dead State??

For the most part people don't play Gothic 3 or Dead State, the latter at least has sold even worse than Bloodlines did.