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What cRPG has the most ridiculously (unnecessarily) elaborate mechanics?

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Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Clerics are in the same tier as mages and druid. They're spellcasters. And if you're relying on them to make your fighter useful, then it's not really the fighter being useful, now is it? You may as well have summoned some minions instead of wasting a spell on healing, or just killed everything yourself. You'd rest less often that way. It takes way more spells to heal a fighter through fighting a horde of monsters than it does to just melt them all.

And if you want to bring consumables into things, wands beat the SHIT out of potions in terms of efficiency. Not to mention all that shit is made by spellcasters in the first place.

Seriously, make a list of monsters to be defeated or bypassed and compare who would get farther before needing outside help, a spellcaster or a fighter. Or if you want to do parties, make it 4 fighters vs 4 mages or some shit. 4 mages crush the shit out of everything past like, level 2. Even before then, they're not really at a disadvantage for most scenarios. Sleeping enemies are effectively dead enemies, and the differences in THACO are trivial.
 

octavius

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Nobody is arguing that mages are more powerful, so why the continued harping?
Also, Fighters can use most wands.
 

DragoFireheart

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Seriously, make a list of monsters to be defeated or bypassed and compare who would get farther before needing outside help, a spellcaster or a fighter. Or if you want to do parties, make it 4 fighters vs 4 mages or some shit. 4 mages crush the shit out of everything past like, level 2. Even before then, they're not really at a disadvantage for most scenarios. Sleeping enemies are effectively dead enemies, and the differences in THACO are trivial.

BUT TEH MAGIC MISSILES!

It's amazing how magic missile is more ironic than the sleep spell even though sleep at those levels is overpowered.
 

Perkel

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Minions system in games is usually fucked up. Either they are powerful or they are weak as shit. Best case scenario BG2
 

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Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Mages are only overpowered if they can rest after each battle. If they are out spells, having spammed them all, a Fighter or even a Thief is more powerful. If all characters are supposed to be equally powerful at any give time, then get rid of the class system.

Because this is bullshit and you haven't admitted that yet.
 
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I for one never liked demon fusions in SMT games. It's not that it was a bad concept but it was impossible (for me at least) to predict what demons will get what demon's which made you just go around getting demon's and trying combinations at random. If the system was explained better it would add more tactic to the game, like hunting for specific demon's to get demon's you want. They could also add instructions for getting specific demon's as item drop.
 

octavius

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Mages are only overpowered if they can rest after each battle. If they are out spells, having spammed them all, a Fighter or even a Thief is more powerful. If all characters are supposed to be equally powerful at any give time, then get rid of the class system.

Because this is bullshit and you haven't admitted that yet.

You mean I should admit that a mage with no spells left is more powerful than a fighter or a thief?
 

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Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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You should admit that a mage doesn't run out of spells faster than a fighter runs out of hp. (Certainly doesn't run dry after one battle) A mage can fight more shit than a fighter before resting. Two mages can fight more shit than a fighter and a mage.
 

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Yeah, in terms of an actual DnD game, wizards are even more broken because of things like that, intangible benefits that make them nigh impossible to kill or stop.

But even in crpgs wizards and other spellcasters are in a different league. Multiple wizards in KotC is disgusting. Rest after every battle? Why would I do that when two of my 12 fireballs just ended things in the first round?
 

DraQ

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A fighter with 1 hp can lose a fight with a housecat. What scenario do you imagine a 1 hp fighter being more useful than a full hp mage with no spells?
One where you have a bunch of potions or a cleric.

It's not a matter of having similar abilities, it's a matter of fighters having NO abilities. Why can't they innately see invisible, regenerate hp, move three times as fast or make guaranteed critical strikes?
Because they are still normal humans with normal eyes and no supernatural abilities, aren't trolls and aren't fucking Flash respectively.

Getting maybe not all crits, but more crits would be neat, same with more tankish abilities and maybe a way to force their way around battlefield.
 

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Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Normal humans my ass. Any DnD character past level 5 or so does superhuman shit. It's just that in the case of the mundane classes, it's not fucking useful. Superhuman ability to jump or swim is pretty fucking irrelevant when the wizard learned how to fly by then. Superhuman ability to pick locks. How amazing. That'll be really useful in the dungeon of 30 sequential locked doors that must be opened within an 8 hour period. Oh wait those don't exist. And even if they did, you'd roll a 1 sooner or later and need to *gasp* rest before trying again. Or you coud cast Knock and still have another 20 spells available for every other problem too.

And as stated, if you're going to say cleric, why not just have another cleric instead of a fighter? Same difference as wizard. Healing potions are made by clerics and a shitty substitute for wands and scrolls. What are you going to solve with a potion of cure serious wounds that wouldn't be better solved with a level 3 scroll of summon monsters or whatever is appropriate? For that matter, why heal the fighter in the first place, when you could let him die, have the cleric cast summon monsters instead, and keep more xp for himself. The fighter is a waste of space in traditional DnD systems.

The only scenario where a fighter is more useful than a wizard (or cleric or any other primary spellcaster) in the long run is when the DM arbitrarily fucks over the wizard. Which is shit balance and shouldn't be repeateded ad infinitum because you want 'realism' in your game about DRAGONS.
 

Lhynn

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It's not a matter of having similar abilities, it's a matter of fighters having NO abilities. Why can't they innately see invisible, regenerate hp, move three times as fast or make guaranteed critical strikes?
Because they are still normal humans with normal eyes and no supernatural abilities, aren't trolls and aren't fucking Flash respectively.

Getting maybe not all crits, but more crits would be neat, same with more tankish abilities and maybe a way to force their way around battlefield.

Just give them better stats and stronger abilities, perfect blindfighting should be a thing, the determination to keep moving forward could grant them a form of fast healing, their martial training could allow them to avoid most avoidable spells. Different techniques could allow them to bypass most defenses, including magical ones, or be able to block/deflect/avoid anything dangerous because of the foreknowledge their years of fighting and immesuarable combat experience. Their movements could be several times more efficient, so even at normal movement speed they could act several times in the same space of time it takes an untrained person to act (mages for example, they not only lack real combat experience or focus, their spells actually have rigid casting times) not just attack, act, as in whole actions.

If you want to make fighters measure up to mages you can do it easily.
 
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DraQ
They are humans with magical items. On level 4 mages have a bunch (about 4-6?) of first and second level spells that can do many things. A fighter on the same level will probably have a sword that hits a bit harder, or a sword that hits a bit harder and burns his enemies a little. There is no reason not to give fighters more items that can actually do stuff (sword that can autocrit x times a day, shoes that makes him leap around the battlefield) and make them fighter exclusive or even better give him some items that can actually scale (a stronger warrior, can unleash more power of an magical sword). Also, not every fighter is human, they could make classes with some innate abilities that can only be developed by advancing in martial classes.
 

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Magic items with stat or skill requirements or benefits should definitely be more of a thing. If say, gauntlets of strength doubled your strength instead of adding +6, they'd make fighters a lot more relevant, since now we're in door smashing, giant grappling territory, before the wizard can simply summon 5 giants for 2 days every 8 hours.. Or if a fighter using boots of speed didn't just move faster, but got massive AC bonus and an extra attack. Elven boots shouldn't add 5 to your move silently skill, but double it. A skilled thief with those shoes should be able to tiptoe across a dragon's back while it sleeps, not be 25% less likely to wake up a snoring fatass guard that they had a 50% chance of waking up before while the wizard floats by invisibly and silently.
 

DraQ

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Magic items with stat or skill requirements or benefits should definitely be more of a thing. If say, gauntlets of strength doubled your strength instead of adding +6, they'd make fighters a lot more relevant, since now we're in door smashing, giant grappling territory, before the wizard can simply summon 5 giants for 2 days every 8 hours.. Blahblah
Ok, now you're making sense. Not only that, but such magic items are pretty much staple of legends and folklore, so they wouldn't feel out of place.
 
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I for one never liked demon fusions in SMT games. It's not that it was a bad concept but it was impossible (for me at least) to predict what demons will get what demon's which made you just go around getting demon's and trying combinations at random. If the system was explained better it would add more tactic to the game, like hunting for specific demon's to get demon's you want. They could also add instructions for getting specific demon's as item drop.

Some of the games have the resulting demon have a random selection of skills from the two fused demons. Which yes, means going back and forth between the "Fuse?" and the "This is the result. Confirm?" screens over and over and over until you get the combination you want. God help you if you were planning to do this over several "generations" (fuse demon A and demon B to get demon X, fuse demon C and demon D to get demon Y, then fuse demon X and demon Y to get demon Z).
 

octavius

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You should admit that a mage doesn't run out of spells faster than a fighter runs out of hp. (Certainly doesn't run dry after one battle) A mage can fight more shit than a fighter before resting. Two mages can fight more shit than a fighter and a mage.

Depends on combat frequency, playing style, opposition and not least level of your party.
When I play the Gold Box or IE game, my fighter types usually mow down Giants without needing much help from the mages once they get a good enough AC that the giants only have only a small chance of hitting them, for example.
But I agree that the higher the level the less useful the fighters are. But most AD&D play is done at lower levels, so even in the tabletop version the players playing mage characters will have to wait a long time to become the most powerful character in the party. At least in older versions of AD&D; I have no experience with edition 4+.
 

Cadmus

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Magic items with stat or skill requirements or benefits should definitely be more of a thing. If say, gauntlets of strength doubled your strength instead of adding +6, they'd make fighters a lot more relevant, since now we're in door smashing, giant grappling territory, before the wizard can simply summon 5 giants for 2 days every 8 hours.. Blahblah
Ok, now you're making sense. Not only that, but such magic items are pretty much staple of legends and folklore, so they wouldn't feel out of place.
Well, this example seems extreme and would lead to a horrible power creep and soon the mages not being good enough again and so on and so on.
 
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Magic items with stat or skill requirements or benefits should definitely be more of a thing. If say, gauntlets of strength doubled your strength instead of adding +6, they'd make fighters a lot more relevant, since now we're in door smashing, giant grappling territory, before the wizard can simply summon 5 giants for 2 days every 8 hours.. Blahblah
Ok, now you're making sense. Not only that, but such magic items are pretty much staple of legends and folklore, so they wouldn't feel out of place.
Well, this example seems extreme and would lead to a horrible power creep and soon the mages not being good enough again and so on and so on.

Mages are supposed to be versatile, not being good enough at dealing damage to a single creature in melee combat should not be a problem for them. They have summoning, buffs, debuffs, save or die spells, save or suck spells, crowd control, area damage spells and many more to compensate for some powerful buffs and magic like abilities.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Well, this example seems extreme and would lead to a horrible power creep and soon the mages not being good enough again and so on and so on.

Not really. If mages only got to cast 1 spell per spell level (and still only got a new spell level on odd levels) they'd STILL be important. Just because the fighter can mow down a dozen giants with ease doesn't mean the ability to fly past them all is inferior. No amount of strength will let you breathe underwater, cross a 400' chasm, find the one magical dagger out of the pile of 300 mundane ones, etc.

To put things into context, a level 7 mage could easily slay something like a Tyrannosaurus, an 18 HD monster meant to be an appropriate challenge for a party of 4 level 8 adventurers. The mage could kill it himself without ever being in any danger at all, and have spells left over, without even using any consumables. Hell, a level 5 mage could pull this off. Another monster in the SRD with the same CR is a hellwasp swarm. A windwall (level 3 spell) would be completely impassable to it and let the mage take it out easily. On the other hand, it's immune to weapons (all weaapons, not just nonmagical ones) and has 10 fire resistance, so even a level 20 fighter could easily die to it. It's also intelligent and able to fly, so even if the fighter had some way to damage it, it could almost certainly escape before dying.
 

DraQ

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Balance is a balancing act!
Why I never!

Though TBH I would specialize a bit differently, with mage being versatile character in many situations and possibly heavy artillery in combat, but requiring lengthy preparation to every task, vulnerable up-close and having trouble with doing stuff inconspicuously, with many spells involving tradeoffs. It could be interesting idea to make large concentrations of magical power difficult to hide from adepts of the art.

Mages are supposed to be versatile
Also this.

Ideally raw power shouldn't be much of a concern, because with such a vast array of tools at their disposal mages should be able to work around any problem.
 

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