What do you like/dislike about roguelikes

[Qwertilot]

Macros - being able to press f1 or f2 to smite the nearest enemy with magic missile/spell of choice really is nice.

Almost willfully 'unbalanced' character classes/races a lot of fun too.

Silliest thing I can remember in one was introducing monster infighting in Zangband (at some stage.). This is in a game where monsters take forever to kill each other and can summon huge numbers of friends to keep it rolling along.

The loot might be good but watching levels gradually fill with ancient dragons? Hummmm.

 

[PorkaMorka]

There is a lot I could mention, but I'll stick to two.

Love: Survival and resource management elements that have been lost in most of the rest of the RPG genre.

In a standard RPG you acquire so many wands, scrolls and potions that you never need to use that you end up dumping them to save inventory space.

In DC:SS you have to use your potions, scrolls, wands etc, but you also have to use them sparingly for much of the game, as there are limited numbers. So you have to think a lot more... do I use this blink scroll to escape, or do I conserve it for later and try to finish this guy off with a less valuable wand?

Survival and resource management were a huge aspect of P&P that haven't made the transition to CRPGs... except roguelikes.

Hate: The idea that ASCII is an acceptable substitute for attractive tile graphics.

 

[Rpgsaurus]

The best thing about roguelikes, no doubt, is the fear of death. When you've invested so many hours into a character and suddenly run into an out-of-depth monster lacking sure-fire means to escape, yeah - that's the feeling!

The worst thing, they're not as replayable as they may seem. Randomness is confined mainly to the dungeon layout, so as soon as I'm "spoiled" from experience, so to speak, and no longer fall for YASD's (mostly), I lose interest.

 

[Nael]

Likes: The difficulty level
Dislikes: THE DIFFICULTY LEVEL

 

[Kz3r0]

Absence of a story doesn't make it particularly attractive either.

All right, who hacked mondblut-RPGs-stole-my-war-game-dice-rolls' account?

 

[7hm]

I like the tactical / strategic aspects to roguelikes. Though the AI is pretty (extremely) simple and the game is fairly basic in terms of options ...

This is an aside.  Most roguelikes have very limited options.  You move, you wait, you attack (ranged or melee), you use a consumable.  They're always dressed up, but they're not complicated at the core.  Not that most games are, really.

... there is in fact a lot of depth. The resource management is incredibly important. The identification portion of the game is incredibly important. In games like Crawl there is an overarching strategy that you have to consider. Strategy that is derived from information learned within the game (I can't kill orcs easily, maybe I shouldn't go into the orc mines yet), from outside the game (various forums / threads / irc / etc that give you spoilers) and from personal experience.

That's the number one thing. I find there are very few games that have that kind of strategic and tactical depth.

Beyond that the randomization is key. Every game is different. If games were the same, you would get bored playing them over and over again. I don't understand people who replay games 2-3 times in a short span. I don't find that fun anymore. When I run out of new content, I'm done with the game.

Contrary to my point about randomization - I love Crawl's vault system and recurring content. It adds a lot of flavour to the game, and seeing a vault for the second or third time and thinking back to the first time you saw it, is a lot of fun. The key though is avoiding TOO much repetition. (I think Crawl has a bit too much in certain spots, particularly the Lair:8 and Snake:5 endings.)

Permadeath is very important. It ties into difficultly. Having just won a roguelike for the first time ever, I can say with conviction that it was the best feeling I'd had after winning a computer game. It felt like a real accomplishment. Without permadeath that wouldn't be the case.

In terms of the graphics... I don't like ASCII but I'm not hugely averse to it. If there is a graphical version available as with DF or Crawl, I'll play it. If there's not, and the game is worth it, as in case of Crawl online, I'll play that too.

One of the biggest things for me is the interface. Crawl's interface blows most roguelike, and non roguelike, interfaces away in terms of flexibility and ease of use (ok, ease of use is not quite as easy as for example DAO or some other semi mindless game).

edit: and I don't give two shits about story in the vast majority of games. If the game centers around a story, I want it to be good, but if the game doesn't, I'm cool with that too.

 

[Rpgsaurus]

I like the tactical / strategic aspects to roguelikes. Though the AI is pretty (extremely) simple and the game is fairly basic in terms of options ...

This is an aside.  Most roguelikes have very limited options.  You move, you wait, you attack (ranged or melee), you use a consumable.  They're always dressed up, but they're not complicated at the core.  Not that most games are, really.

... there is in fact a lot of depth. The resource management is incredibly important. The identification portion of the game is incredibly important. In games like Crawl there is an overarching strategy that you have to consider. Strategy that is derived from information learned within the game (I can't kill orcs easily, maybe I shouldn't go into the orc mines yet), from outside the game (various forums / threads / irc / etc that give you spoilers) and from personal experience..

I also find that the biggest asset, for a player, is patience. This is so unlike most other types of games where the price of failure is non-existent (save/reload).

The second biggest asset is luck. Crawl can fuck with you in early game no matter how careful you are (A Kobold With a Wand Of Death Fire, yes I'm looking at you). Finding good items can also make the difference between an endless struggle for survival and "HA! this game is too easy" (and, ironically, a death-by-boredom).

 

[Damned Registrations]

Any graphics whores in this thread might want to check out ToME 4. I went back to it after a long abscence after reading they finally fixed the horrible lag (which he did, runs buttery smooth all the time now) and after dicking with the graphics a bit, discovered this tileset/ Holy fuck is it pretty for a roguelike.

 

[mondblut]

Absence of a story doesn't make it particularly attractive either.

All right, who hacked mondblut-RPGs-stole-my-war-game-dice-rolls' account?

Did I ever claim a narrative is bad for an RPG to have?

All I stress is that it a) does not necessarily make or break an RPG, b) is by no means a genre-defining aspect, and c) is prone to become an obstacle to actual genre-defining aspects (i.e. freedom of exploration and interaction).

Which by no means prevents an RPG with a story from being superior to an RPG without a story, providing all other aspects are identical.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Dislike:

• Controls. In my opinion many roguelikes would benefit from more intuitive control scheme and mouse support. Non-intuitive controls doesn't add to complexity or difficulty, and I don't think that ditching them would make roguelike less interesting.
  Balance issues. Many roguelikes are suffering from balance issues concerning level design (I know it's hard to avoid because of auto-generating levels, but still) and classes.

Like:

• Replayability. Roguelikes have much higher replayability than most other genre games.
  Imagination potential. Because of simple grafic tileset or ASCII, roguelikes leave many aspects for player's imagination.
  Complex gameplay. For example, I for the first time encountered possibility to freeze water with ray of frost and make an ice bridge to get to the treasure chest exactly in roguelike. Roguelikes often have more complex world mechanics possibilities than RPG's.

Indifferent to:

• ASCII. ASCII graphics never bothered me, and though I prefer a nice tileset, I still can enjoy the game in ASCII mode.
  Not having a clear goal. Because of permadeath it's hard to reach a goal anyway. I don't really need story-driven roguelike.
  Permadeath. Eh, I cheat anyway, when I like my character I'm not above save scumming.

 

[NicePics13]

Holy fuck is it pretty for a roguelike.

Oooh, shiny!

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

No parties.

It's sometimes possible (in ADOM and IncursionRL) possible to have several followers which can be given basic orders like move, attack, move before me, follow, etc.

Primitive IGOUGO (or rather ISTEPUSTEP even) game mechanics, no action points and shit.

It's not really that primitive. And it's more like a WEGO system. There's speed instead of action points and everything makes its move simultaneously based on speed.

In ADOM movement is very important and there are "Tactics" settings (together with a skill for them) - coward, very defensive, defensive, normal, aggressive, very aggressive and berserk, which are also very important.

And then the mechanics are more complex (because they aren't limited by need to create graphical assets to represent them), they allow stuff like freezing water, destroying walls, mining, blacksmithing, burning items, religion, earthquakes, etc.

Gameworld is pretty much non-existant due to random generation and the barebones dungeon crawl approach.

That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.

Absence of a story doesn't make it particularly attractive either.

That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.

 

[mondblut]

It's sometimes possible (in ADOM and IncursionRL) possible to have several followers which can be given basic orders like move, attack, move before me, follow, etc.

Just like in Fallout3, amirite?

A proper party is a group of characters you created from scratch and control fully. Anything less than that is a travesty.

It's not really that primitive. And it's more like a WEGO system. There's speed instead of action points and everything makes its move simultaneously based on speed.

In ADOM movement is very important and there are "Tactics" settings (together with a skill for them) - coward, very defensive, defensive, normal, aggressive, very aggressive and berserk, which are also very important.

And then the mechanics are more complex (because they aren't limited by need to create graphical assets to represent them), they allow stuff like freezing water, destroying walls, mining, blacksmithing, burning items, religion, earthquakes, etc.

The fact that 99% of your activity ingame consists of repeatedly hitting an arrow key pointing in the direction of an enemy sadly invalidates all the doubtlessly noble intentions outlined above. And alas, an occasional opportunity to hit an arrow key two times in a row without said enemy hitting his virtual arrow key back (or the other way around) does not make this activity any more exciting.

That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.
That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.

In other words, the less of a roguelike a roguelike is, the better it becomes. QED.

 

[mondblut]

Holy fuck is it pretty for a roguelike.

Looks almost nice, but what's that with the "@" and "^" shit doing in there?

 

[Rpgsaurus]

It's sometimes possible (in ADOM and IncursionRL) possible to have several followers which can be given basic orders like move, attack, move before me, follow, etc.

Just like in Fallout3, amirite?

A proper party is a group of characters you created from scratch and control fully. Anything less than that is a travesty.

It's not really that primitive. And it's more like a WEGO system. There's speed instead of action points and everything makes its move simultaneously based on speed.

In ADOM movement is very important and there are "Tactics" settings (together with a skill for them) - coward, very defensive, defensive, normal, aggressive, very aggressive and berserk, which are also very important.

And then the mechanics are more complex (because they aren't limited by need to create graphical assets to represent them), they allow stuff like freezing water, destroying walls, mining, blacksmithing, burning items, religion, earthquakes, etc.

The fact that 99% of your activity ingame consists of repeatedly hitting an arrow key pointing in the direction of an enemy sadly invalidates all the doubtlessly noble intentions outlined above. And alas, an occasional opportunity to hit an arrow key two times in a row without said enemy hitting his virtual arrow key back (or the other way around) does not make this activity any more exciting.

That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.
That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.

In other words, the less of a roguelike a roguelike is, the better it becomes. QED.

Roguelike RPGs and party-based RPGs are simply different games. Party-based games have the benefit of, well, building your own party to your heart's desire, which is awesome. Roguelikes offer a lot of challenge in surviving with "one life only", which is awesome too, in a different way.

This explains why roguelikes turn into really, really sub-par games if you save-scum.

 

[Zomg]

ADoM sux dude just try Crawl. I had good excuses why ADoM was good before I played Crawl, now I realize those excuses were filthy lies. I know you are like, "but I'm invested in ADoM, I know stuff", but Crawl is actually fun to learn and not a huge fucking chore like every shitty RPG usually is.

Anyway.

Most "party based games" (this is conceptually meaningless, there is a "party" in a blobber game even though it has absolutely no gameplay meaning and could just as easily be one dude) aren't "just different" from RL, they are stupid in gameplay terms when you set aside the stories and NPCs and the act of pretending to be one or more cool dudes. You are there for the story and roleplaying stuff and for sperging about builds, not for gameplay.

 

[Johannes]

It's not really that primitive. And it's more like a WEGO system. There's speed instead of action points and everything makes its move simultaneously based on speed.

In ADOM movement is very important and there are "Tactics" settings (together with a skill for them) - coward, very defensive, defensive, normal, aggressive, very aggressive and berserk, which are also very important.

And then the mechanics are more complex (because they aren't limited by need to create graphical assets to represent them), they allow stuff like freezing water, destroying walls, mining, blacksmithing, burning items, religion, earthquakes, etc.

The fact that 99% of your activity ingame consists of repeatedly hitting an arrow key pointing in the direction of an enemy sadly invalidates all the doubtlessly noble intentions outlined above. And alas, an occasional opportunity to hit an arrow key two times in a row without said enemy hitting his virtual arrow key back (or the other way around) does not make this activity any more exciting.

Except that's quite far from the truth. When you've got various attack spells, missile weapons, teleport, darkness, various disabling techniques, and more, be these from memorized spells or consumable wands, potions or scrolls, against varying opponents (including all kinds of summoners, spellcasters, teleporters, paralyzers, etc.) you get a lot more things to do than just hit attack.

Also the battles that are easy enough to require only that straight up attacking are blissfully fast compared to such pushover fights in most partybased RPGs.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Looks almost nice, but what's that with the "@" and "^" shit doing in there?

Feel free to design a separate 64x64 pixel tile for every player class/race combo and every trap in the game. (There are actually custom tiles for a lot of traps already, like the poison vines and fire/frost/lightning traps.)

 

[7hm]

... roguelikes turn into really, really sub-par games if you save-scum.

Absolutely true. (though I would say most games turn into very sub-par if you save-scum consistently)

And mondblut turned out to be a storyfag. I am very disappoint, it's like when I learned Santa didn't exist.

 

[Rpgsaurus]

ADoM sux dude just try Crawl. I had good excuses why ADoM was good before I played Crawl, now I realize those excuses were filthy lies. I know you are like, "but I'm invested in ADoM, I know stuff", but Crawl is actually fun to learn and not a huge fucking chore like every shitty RPG usually is.

ADOM can actually work like an "introductory roguelike" for RPG players with its semblance of a story, a setting, NPCs etc.

Most "party based games" (this is conceptually meaningless, there is a "party" in a blobber game even though it has absolutely no gameplay meaning and could just as easily be one dude) aren't "just different" from RL, they are stupid in gameplay terms when you set aside the stories and NPCs and the act of pretending to be one or more cool dudes. You are there for the story and roleplaying stuff and for sperging about builds, not for gameplay.

"Many dudes as one compact dude" in blobbers is technically correct (although what about party formations? not that they're too important anyway).

However, not all party based RPGs are blobbers, you know, so it looks more like you're gripe is with blobbers and not with party based RPGs in general.

 

[Rpgsaurus]

(though I would say most games turn into very sub-par if you save-scum consistently)

Yeah, though it takes some discipline to not abuse the "save-load" function when it's right there in front of you.

I mean, what's the point of including a RNG in your game system if you can just re-roll every time? Binary systems make a lot more sense, like when you have enough skill you automatically succeed (for outside of combat). It goes without saying that saving/loading in combat just feels like cheating, whether the game allows it or not.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It's not really that primitive. And it's more like a WEGO system. There's speed instead of action points and everything makes its move simultaneously based on speed.

In ADOM movement is very important and there are "Tactics" settings (together with a skill for them) - coward, very defensive, defensive, normal, aggressive, very aggressive and berserk, which are also very important.

And then the mechanics are more complex (because they aren't limited by need to create graphical assets to represent them), they allow stuff like freezing water, destroying walls, mining, blacksmithing, burning items, religion, earthquakes, etc.

The fact that 99% of your activity ingame consists of repeatedly hitting an arrow key pointing in the direction of an enemy sadly invalidates all the doubtlessly noble intentions outlined above. And alas, an occasional opportunity to hit an arrow key two times in a row without said enemy hitting his virtual arrow key back (or the other way around) does not make this activity any more exciting.

No, it would be unbearable. Most of the time is spent on exploration, travelling and resource management.

And there are rooms and bigger halls which make thoughtlessly running towards the nearest enemy and just pressing arrow key until he dies suicidally stupid. Especially with various spells and special abilities available both to the PC and the enemies.
Then there's ranged combat. So no, you are completely wrong.

And how do you imagine defeating a group of relatively strong enemies just by pressing arrow key? You have to maneuvre to make sure that you don't get surrounded (each additional attacker gets a bonus to hit), often you have to run past enemies in coward mode to get into better position.

That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.
That's why ADOM is the only roguelike that I have really got into.

In other words, the less of a roguelike a roguelike is, the better it becomes. QED.

More like the more thought and work is put into designing a roguelike, the better it becomes.

 

[7hm]

No, it would be unbearable. Most of the time is spent on exploration, travelling and resource management.

This is something I didn't mention earlier, but it's a great point. Exploration is key to roguelikes. Yet another point in Crawl's favour. The story falls apart a bit when you enter forests and beaches in the dungeon, but it's a lot more fun to explore. And the fact that the game continues far beyond the standard "get three runes and the orb" that is needed to win is great as well.

I find as an introduction to some of the genre concepts, Spelunky does a good job and you really do get that exploration feeling.

 

[DakaSha]

ADoM sux dude just try Crawl. I had good excuses why ADoM was good before I played Crawl, now I realize those excuses were filthy lies. I know you are like, "but I'm invested in ADoM, I know stuff", but Crawl is actually fun to learn and not a huge fucking chore like every shitty RPG usually is.
.

Bla. Both have their ups and downs and personally I find ADoM to be the better game.. and yes ive played them both about an equal amount of time.. both for over 10 years
---



Also for the record i dont see why people seem to think that Roguelike = No party.. Of course most dont have a party and none of the big ones do but its not a genre defining quality. There are roguleikes with parties (all in terrible condition though)

topi Yilnen (the Zangband fag) was working on a party based roguleike which was retarded and unplayable last i checked but it was in a very early state.. dont know if hes still working on it though

 

[Zomg]

My Crawl supremacism is half-serious

However, not all party based RPGs are blobbers, you know, so it looks more like you're gripe is with blobbers and not with party based RPGs in general.

Well I guess my point was that I want you to drop the terminology of "party based games" and say squad tactics games like the Gold Boxes, X-Com, Darklands, Tactics Ogre, JA2 (at least when you mean squad tactics). There is nothing gameplay-inherent to nominal parties.

I also want people to really fucking think how many times they enjoyed the gameplay of the squad tactics portions of squad tactics RPGs. I could probably name like five where I got more than an hour before there was nothing interesting left to consider. AI exploits are boring, systems are usually some combination of obtuse and stupid, etc.

THAT SAID, the geometric maneuvering like you get in good squad tactics is still pretty primitive in the roguelikes I've played, there are minor considerations but mostly you just want to back into a corridor and fight one monster at a time. It's an acknowledged weakness and people are thinking about how to unfuck it.