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What do you want to improve in RPGs?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by endasil, Nov 27, 2016.

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  1. Xathrodox86 Arbiter

    Xathrodox86
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    I want to stop with the open world shit already. Open worlds are good for MMO's. Normal RPG's are hurt by making them open world, since the story becomes dilluted and players run around, doing stupid shit, instead of focusing on the plot, which is kinda the main, fucking point of any RPG.
     
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  2. Aenra Guest

    Aenra
    The audience.
     
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  3. pippin Guest

    pippin
    This is why FO4 has no stats :M
     
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  4. ntonystinson Scholar

    ntonystinson
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    It is not compulsory for an RPG to be "developer story heavy". How about an alive world to create your own story aka Mount and Blade
     
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  5. Dux Arcane

    Dux
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    Can you spare some cutter, me brother?

    1. Get out of my way before I KILLLL YOUOOO!!
    2. Of course, my child, here you go. Go with my blessing. :hug:

    If you're gonna have dialogue choices commit to it fully (i.e. flesh it out) or don't do it at all.
     
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  6. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    This man has it right. There cannae be enough elf-slaughter.
     
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  7. Zed Duke of Banville Zo Kath Ra Patron

    Zed Duke of Banville
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    The concepts of hit points and armor class originated in naval wargames created by none other than Fletcher Pratt, who was also an important influence on D&D through his fantasy writing. The collaborations between L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Spratt were mentioned in Gary Gygax's introduction to the original version of D&D as one of four literary inspirations, and the famous Appendix N "Inspirational and Educational Reading" in Gary Gygax's AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide includes entries for both Fletcher Pratt separately and Pratt with de Camp, mentioning the duo again as one of six primary literary inspirations (the others being Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, H.P. Lovecraft, and Abraham Merritt).
     
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  8. Brancaleone Arbiter

    Brancaleone
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    Devote some significant amount of time and resources to encounter design and enemy AI (especially in combat-heavy RPG's), instead of leaving them for last and doing the usual "We're out of time! Copy-paste the same group of basic mooks all over the map, and slap an 'auto-attack on sight' string on them!".
     
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  9. adrix89 Arbiter

    adrix89
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    Why are there so many of my country here?
    Take a good 4X Game or Grand Strategy, cram it in a RPG with all those faction and diplomacy systems intact and give the player precisely ZERO power on that strategic level.
    Simulate all the NPCs with their status and functions that control the strategic level, throw in some politics and internal faction fighting and let the player act only through those relations or more directly as a spy and sabotage commandos style.
    Heck make the combat and missions based on Silent Storm cause why the fuck not? Add some Hitman and Thief for good measure while your at it.

    Gather information on enemy movement, target supplies and production, steal that wonderful research.

    Be the Secrete Agent Man.
     
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  10. Thonius Arcane

    Thonius
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    Well it would be cool to play RPG based on Crusader Kings relation, faction system.
    Imagine if you're killing wolves for that sweet XP when Kings decree comes in and rules that "thou cannot hunt wolves", because king super into wolfhounds and likes to hunt wolf and you're kinda ruin all fun. Then wolves multiply and you got farmers riots because wolves ate all the sheep and farmers cant pay taxes no more. Next thing you know you're' knee deep in farmers blood. Oh noes! Here goes famine and more riots! Few years later you're Bane Of farmers, Butcher of the Farmvile. All hate you and a king. Ops, noble houses invited neighboring ruler to kill the king and rule them. Oh no! Civil war and intervention! Etc.
    Nuhhh to complicated, better copy paste some rats and slap some romance options (well it is kinda complicated).
     
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  11. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    - The over-reliance on grotesque, senseless (and often glorified) violence, at the expense of all other roleplaying possibilites and advancements in roleplaying mechanics, where violence is always the simplies, safest and most rewarding way of solving anything; instead of being and all-end, heavy choice to resolve an important conflict and give it even more meaning (basically "when all else fails...") and a tactical challenge. As a result, totaly fearless players who know they are destined to win anything, suffer no consequences or always be rewarded; braindead companions and NPCs and enemies that have no instinct of self preservation and will always die, wave after wave, without surrendering or caring for their lives ("well you killed these first 4 squads of my soldiers, but I AM TOTALLY DIFFERENT!-- ....oh no, how is it possible I lose!") and gameworld that doesn't care fucks about losing more population from one man than black death killed in medieval times.

    - The overall repetitiveness of RPG gameplay, where the process is being banged into your head like a nail with a hammer until bloody tears come from your eyes, and you feel like your brain died after you collected another 3 ingredients, exhausted 15 lines of dialogue that doesn't do anything, killed another pack of monsters, finished another room that is the same as other rooms of a dungeon, rotated by 1500th time your kewldowns, and solved a quest you know is just filler. A trap of meaningless content into which every designer falls into, like adding THAT FINAL DUNGEON that is basically a line you have to finish and have no choice about it, making challenging parts of the game completely optional, while making main gameplay a glorified tutorial.
     
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  12. nomask7 Arcane

    nomask7
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    What was that indie game that was about survival in a warzone or something? It's rather popular for a game that looks like a 1990s adventure game at best. It's not much of a CRPG, but it proves that devs can turn cliches on their heads and still make something that has the potential to sell.

    There's a lot of potential for innovation in CRPGs. Soldak did a little of this in their Diablo-clones and managed to create something a lot more interesting (especially in Din's Curse) than AAA games like Titan Quest and Diablo 2, though they suck at making their games widely known.

    In any case, AAA publishers refuse to take risks outside the odd expansion pack (e.g. Mask of the Betrayer, Fallout New Vegas). This is why they'll forever stay mid-sized, because they're only catering to a small percentage of the population, a million or so brainless habitual gamers, like the people who go to movies every other Saturday regardless of what's on. The majority of Western population sees that kind of gaming as the brainless crap that it is.

    An innovative indie like Minecraft, for all of its flaws, has sold 10 times or 20 times as much as the most popular shit peddled by the AAA publishers. Even WoW is small potatos compared to that. Heck, indies are better even at creating popular hiking sims, just look at No Man's Sky. Bethesda should be ashamed. The future of gaming is where there's a way to the hearts of the 90% of the population that doesn't yet play video games or plays them very rarely. The AAA publishers have dropped the ball on that. We'll see whether the indies manage to pick it up.
     
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  13. eXalted Prophet

    eXalted
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    This War of Mine?
     
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  14. nomask7 Arcane

    nomask7
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    That's the one. Twenty-thousand Steam reviews isn't bad for a game that an AAA publisher would never, ever have okayed.
     
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  15. typical user Arbiter

    typical user
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    This. If RPGs are to improve then first the audience must vote with their wallets.

    The story behind decline.
     
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  16. anvi Prophet Village Idiot

    anvi
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    Lots of stuff.

    1) Get rid of stories and dialogue. I don't mind if it is good, but I have only ever seen it be good once, out of 10000000 games, so just don't do it, it is always so fucking terrible. The problem is that millennials have never watched a TV, never seen a good movie, never seen The Wire, The Shield, Weeds, Cheers, Breaking Bad, etc.. So they just have no frame of reference. All their entertainment comes from some moron twitch streamer or twerking youtube cunt, so anything that resembles a story or conversation in a video game will blow their mind. But the truth is, it is all terrible.
    Adventurer! You must help us! This town has become afflicted by a curse/witch/wizard/goblin/zombie/vampire/demon/archdragon/etc and you must find a rare plant/amulet/ring/potion/alchemist/etc/ to cure us! Or in Bethesda's case, Jarl Fjorgnflrprrpderp is mad at Jarl Fnargenshnarf and you must help me to rally deee people to stand against him, travel 100000 miles to Keep Fyjargenskgaskg and speak to Osrum about obtaining a rare plant to unite dee peoples. And you are always the lone hero to save the world. And it is always a terrible ancient evil, a blight on the land, etc. And that is just the main quest... If it is one of those side quest type games (fucking Bethesda) you also have to do a million quests that are basically, "Greetings adventurer, I lost my necklace/boots/sword/wife/sheep/etc in dungeon X and you must go and retrieve it for me because you are an xbox retard and that is what you do, now go." Fuck stories and dialogue. The only way to do a game like this is to have a single intro that explains the whole plot in 2 minutes max. And then no more than 1 more minute of talking in the rest of the game. If games like Legend of Grimrock can do it, then everyone can.

    2) The combat is always so shit in RPG's. Yet I live for it... but always want more. The problem is that there are only two types of RPG, and both are retarded. The first type is the tactical RPG that codexers have a hardon for, and it is the best type for sure, but it is still pretty shit. A big bad enemy attacks you, and you have a fireball, but first you must strip several layers of magic protection from the enemy. By that point the enemy is in your face so you can no longer use your fireball or you would blow yourself up. So instead you cast Ball of Discomfort which does 1 damage, and repeat. When everything is dead you find a skeleton still throwing stones at you, so finally you can unleash ice comets, fireballs, and a cone of cold on the poor skelly. And now you have to rest for an hour before you can repeat this again 1000 times. It is retarded in a rainman aspergersy type way.
    The second type of RPG is the action RPG, like everything Bethesduh make and the Gothic series and lots of others. You press left mouse to hack 'N slash stuff or pew pew your bow/fireball and everything dies and explodes and chests full of loot appear and now you can upgrade 1 of your 3 stats. It is retarded in a retarded type way.
    There are about 3 or 4 exceptions in the history of gaming that were really good and didn't work like this. I will describe them in another post if anyone is still reading and wants to know.

    3) The progression and loot is always bad. I looted items in EverQuest in 1999 that I can still remember today, because it was such an incredible experience. Yet I can't remember a single item I have looted in any other game, before or since, including ones I played today. This is proof all games are shit (except Everquest obviously). But not just the loot, the way you build your character in general needs to stop being bad. RPG's need to let people assign attribute points, and they need to be able to ruin their character if they do something stupid with it. I don't mind if the game lets you reset all your points for 1000 gold or something, I just care that the game depth to it. Most new games are scared of doing that. Also there needs to be ways to make the character feel like my own. I don't mind a strict rigid class, as long as I can excel at playing it in my own way. But ideally it will be like Neverwinter Nights or something where you pick a Sorc/Wiz and there are 20 different spells each time you level up, and picking what I think is best, eventually makes the character that I envisioned from the start. Nowadays you just don't get that kind of depth and variety and quantity in games. If you like tactical RPG's, there are only like 5 of them left, and although I like them for being like the one gem in a mountain of turds, to be honest they aren't that great. Blackguards, Aaklash Legacy etc. They give you the basics but that's it. Aarklash was cool for a single play through over a few days, and it was a little indie game so that's fine. But from a bigger game I need more than 4 spells on each character. p.s. Fuck the Dragon Age series and everyone who defended it, because they are big budget games with a grand total of about 8 spells on a character. Neverwinter had 800.

    4) Stop wasting my time with timesinks. If I run for 10 minutes to get to a village, and then some fuck gives me a quest to run 10 minutes back where I came from to collect a magical orb of time wastage, I will likely just uninstall. I don't mind almost constant fighting because at least that engages me, but running doesn't. And it doesn't matter if it is running through swooshy grass in CryEngine26 or clicking to make my sprite cross a 2d screen like Baldurs Gate, or whatever, if I feel the game is dragging shit out, I get annoyed. Pillars of Eternity annoyed me in this way, and many other ways. That game was so shit.

    5) Stop making dungeons that are glorified caves. I played EQ in almost 20 years ago that had dungeons that would blow your mind. And there were no maps, and you would stuggle to map it anyway because there are multiple floors so there is stuff above you and below you etc.. Basically you just had to explore it and have a good sense of direction and you had to remember landmarks and stuff. There were hidden rooms behind fake walls, traps (that wouldn't 1 shot you but would hurt), lots of varied bosses, etc. If a modern game can't at least do something as good as that 20 year old low budget game, then they shouldn't be in the games business. Basically, look at Skyrim and do the exact opposite of everything that game does.

    EA are like gaming cancer, and Bethesda are like a degenerative brain disease of gaming.

    6) Stop wasting budget on production values that aren't necessary. Not every RPG needs to look like Crysis, be voiced by Brad Pitt and music by.... some big orchestra or some douche like Jeremy Soule. And not everything needs to be an open world.... Open worlds are pretty essential for games that involve driving or flying planes or anything very fast. But when I am trudging around on foot or a horse, there is nothing wrong with spending a few hours in an area and the crossing a loading screen for 10 seconds that brings me another few hours of gameplay. Open World would be preferable but the problem is that it is so expensive, and also it often comes at the detriment of the game. Again talking about EQ... but that game had no open world, just zones. But every one was very memorable and very distinctive. No two zones were the same and they had their own personalities. And it is so much cheaper to make a game like that, and yet it can be more fun to play. When I enjoy a game with a budget of $2 like Legend of Grimrock more than I enjoy a game with a budget of $2 billion like Dragon Age Inquisition, something is very fucked up with the situation.

    7) Fantasy music is done to death and so cliched, and it is also far too American. It has trumpets and battle drums too much, and soppy strings and twinkly piano in touching bullshit moments. The problem is that every movie is American, every TV show, and almost every game, and when they are all sound the same, it is really bad... Maybe it only bothers me because I am a musician and am into this sort of thing, but once you notice how everything is the same, it becomes infuriating. Then you get some weird little game from Poland or some far away place and it sounds COMPLETELY different. It is like a breath of fresh air.

    8) There is more but it is late.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  17. adrix89 Arbiter

    adrix89
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    Why are there so many of my country here?
    Do it faggot.
     
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  18. Shadowfang Arcane

    Shadowfang
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    Road to Arnika
    Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
  19. anvi Prophet Village Idiot

    anvi
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    Not unless you ask nicely. Now go and sit on the naughty boy step and stay there until you can learn how to behave properly.
     
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  20. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    Sounds like World War 1 "tactics". "The 29 previous companies that went over the top were decimated, but for us surely it will be different".
     
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  21. Alkarl Learned

    Alkarl
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
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    I sincerely love how no one has really mentioned graphics.

    Also this:
    I'm a total sim fag. I love the Ultimas. Especially 5, just epic.

    I've also noticed how a lot of people mention combat to some degree, and I wonder why that is? I completely agree though, developers haven't moved past combat as a main interaction with the game world. Not that this is a bad design, but its so overplayed. If I wanted to kill 40 orcs, I'd load up a GoldBox and do that every other battle. Sleep and Sweep! But seriously, we need more meaningful world interactions beyond kill this, and go fuck that.

    Most AAA designers bastardize the term "rpg" when what they really mean is "gamified". Skyrim is a gamified action game. Inquisition is a gamified Dating Sim. I used to work in a dev shop at a production company, and one of the things we were tasked with was figuring out how to gamify our production work to increase staff productivity. I certainly wouldn't call data entry some sort of epic rpg experience, just like you wouldn't refer to Call of Duty as an rpg.

    Then we have indies which mostly try to monopolize on game designs that haven't changed since the late 80's. Worst example I've come across recently being Serpent in The Staglands. Taking away useful features like clearly defined quest flags and objectives doesn't make your game hardcore, just outdated. Seems like most indie devs these days attempt to either whore out the infinity engine or EoB RT style blobbers, when they aren't busy making rogue-likes/lites.

    I've actually been working with some ideas, trying to get a solid design together for something.
    Some of the ideas I've been playing with are as follows:

    Turn-based combat (duh), but with several caveats.
    Stats have effects inside and outside of combat scenarios. Incredible strength, for instance, would allow a character to move a heavy boulder or push over a tree.
    NPCs have more realistic reactions. No more nobody farmers picking a fight with you and your entourage of fully armed murder machines. Charisma is broken down into different traits some characters will find desirable and others wont; your boyish charms might work on some characters but others find scars more attractive/intimidating/persuasive. Deep faction relations: wiping out a nest of brigands may appease the local lord, but the villagers that were harboring them may resent you.
    Open world, with over-arcing but completely optional plots.
    Different events and items that can change the way the player plays the game. For instance, the player can purchase a cart or pack-mule to haul all their stuff. Or, the player could find Pandoras box, clear whatever evil was sealed inside of it, and then have access to a whole pocket-dimensions worth of storage.

    These are just a few ideas I've been kicking around. Anyway, more sim would be awesome, less story and more motivation for combat. I also second the notion of blending Crusader Kings 2 into an rpg somehow.
     
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  22. Azrael the cat Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Azrael the cat
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    Stretch from the Westworld thread, but can you imagine an rpg set in that kind of fake-but-sentient universe, with a Ford-like antognist who at the 2/3 mark lists off all the sentient beings you've killed, plus all the ones that have died as a result of your choices, and concludes "You see old friend, right now, the biggest threat to the hosts isn't me. It's you...[and that's why I have to stop you, no matter how much it hurts me] Goodbye, old friend."
     
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  23. Bohrain Liturgist Patron

    Bohrain
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    norf
    Being the only group of murderhoboes roaming in the area.
     
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  24. Trash Pointing and laughing.

    Trash
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    We should first decide on the exact nature of what constitutes an rpg before we delve into this.
     
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  25. deama Prophet

    deama
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    I think it would help a lot if there was some sort of free engine with the basic systems in place already made for devs (e.g. turn based combat, standard character progression, standard loot tables...), and allow the devs to change those if they wanted to. Maybe open-source as well, so you can download module packs of a different turn based system, or a different character progression system someone else made.

    Sure, this would create lots of crap cause it'd be easier to make "RPGs", but at least the big boyz upstairs (or the guys that wanna make good stuff) would have more leeway cause it'd be cheaper.
     
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