What does a game meaningfully gain by adding rpg elements/mechanics

[sullynathan]

This is a thought that has been running through my mind for a bit after playing many games that have rpg mechanics or elements and then similar games or games within the same series removing said rpg mechanics.

A video about the recent God of War game had me thinking of how one mechanic in the game is made worse just due to adding rpg mechanics to a game series that was an action game. In that example, you can target enemies with your axe and stick them to the wall if you hit them, but if the enemy is your level or higher then you can't, perfectly ruins a game mechanic for something as arbitrary as a level.

Take Castlevania Symphony of the Night for example. It isn't an rpg, but it has many rpg elements. You can level up, gain spells, have small inventory management, hundreds of weapons, etc. but did it add much meaningful to the game, I'd say not in the long run. At a certain point, you find that you have too much fluff as options with this game. Playing Aria of Sorrow, one of the later Castlevania games, has many of the same mechanics as Symphony of the night but cuts them down. No more ridiculous amounts of spells, weapons and leveling, and the major gameplay mechanic is killing enemies for their soul which ended up making combat encounters better.

One big example I want to touch on that is popular on the codex is the souls series. Many here wouldn't call the Souls games rpgs but for the sake of the thread we will just accept that they have many rpg mechanics. Souls games are combat focus and have the usual rpg mechanics: leveling, loot, inventory management, etc. but these rpg mechanics don't further any other part of the game. You can still go through many portions of Dark Souls while ignoring these rpg elements and it doesn't improve combat, the portion of the game that is most affected outside of giving the player bigger damage numbers and 10001 different weapons that mostly attack the same and affect enemies in the same manner. In contrast to any good actio game that lacks these rpg elements, you have somthing more focused with even better combat that is not hampered by leveling your player to increase your damage by a few points.

 

[789456123]

replayability methinks

 

[DeepOcean]

If it is an AAA, every time you hear RPG mechanics, change it on your mind for loot box hamster wheel and you will get why so many AAA games claim they have RPG elements.

 

[Loostreaks]

Long term enjoyment, giving more "purpose" to gameplay, "tweaking" your playstyle. Light progression system is not all bad, if it does not interfere with other systems: Far Cry III, where it makes sense as you start off as a rookie ( though you somehow know how to shoot like a pro).

Action games like DMC/Bayonetta still do this better than likes of Borderlands, by rewarding player skill and encouraging more diverse playstyle.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Gregz]

What does a game meaningfully gain by adding rpg elements/mechanics

The more elements, the more likely it will be referred to as an RPG.

See here this fascinating subject elucidated: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...eneral-codex-theory-of-what-is-an-rpg.106544/

 

[Jacob]

You're talking out of your ass regarding SoTN and Dark Souls, just saying.

 

[Tehdagah]

The guy spends too much time talking about immersion and experience. Also he criticizes the camera of the new God of War while using japanese hack 'n slashes as examples of camera done right, lol

 

[Reinhardt]

Rpg elements/mechanics.

 

[sullynathan]

You're talking out of your ass regarding SoTN and Dark Souls, just saying.

SoTN is a weaker game due to rpg fluff. You now have to go back and modify the game for it to be better.

 

[Roqua]

The issue is you don't like rpgs and don't play rpgs. Rpgs are built around rpg systems and mechanics - that is the game. The games you like are not rpgs that tacked on a couple things that are rpgish so people incorrectly think its an rpg.

Play a real action game with rpg elements like Bloodlines and then ask. Those rpg elements are the core of the game.

 

[sullynathan]

The issue is you don't like rpgs and don't play rpgs. Rpgs are built around rpg systems and mechanics - that is the game. The games you like are not rpgs that tacked on a couple things that are rpgish so people incorrectly think its an rpg.

Play a real action game with rpg elements like Bloodlines and then ask. Those rpg elements are the core of the game.

This thread is in General gaming because it isn't specifically about the rpg genre but games that aren't RPGs but have rpg mechanics.

I like RPGs and I've played many of them.

 

[Master]

It seems rpg mechanics are just a cheap trick for prolonging the game. Not sure if upgrading your guns in Dead Space counts. It was okay but also kinda pointless.

 

[OSK]

Infinitron will make a news post about it.

 

[Roqua]

This thread is in General gaming because it isn't specifically about the rpg genre but games that aren't RPGs but have rpg mechanics.

I like RPGs and I've played many of them.

Sorry, my bad. In that case I think it is just a sales gimmick? Add an extra genre and increase sales?

 

[sullynathan]

This thread is in General gaming because it isn't specifically about the rpg genre but games that aren't RPGs but have rpg mechanics.

I like RPGs and I've played many of them.

Sorry, my bad. In that case I think it is just a sales gimmick? Add an extra genre and increase sales?

seems to me that a mod moved my thread to GRPG and then moved it back to General gaming since I have two notifications that my thread was moved. I wonder who did that

 

[DraQ]

The legitimate purpose of RPG mechanics is two-fold:

• It adds the concept of builds which effectively adds a whole new dimension to the gameplay, personalizes playthroughs with element of player's choice, and enhances replayability. You have to choose your own toolset when playing the game and stick with it whether or not you'd really prefer something else at any given moment.
  
• It can be used as a framework for creating all kinds of NPCs just as well as PCs, so it acts as a cohesive framing mechanics for players to grok and for developers to not have to do the same thing over and over.

The illegitimate or at best dubiously legitimate purpose is:

• To let players masturbate to numbers going up.

 

[Mojobeard]

Extra thing to fiddle around with to break the gameplay loop. It might also add perceived depth to the game, like you're actually making meaningful choices and building toward something. But of course having 3% more health is basically nothing, no matter if you invest in it five times or not.
Some of these mechanics might also exist to gate the player a little bit, having enough damage++ could kill stronger enemies a hit or two faster. Of course with their one week of psychology studies, the devs think of the players as Pavlov's dogs that go "oh I feel so much stronger than I was at the beginning, it was so rewarding making those numbers be a bit bigger". When in actuality we know it's a bunch of tacked on nonsense.

 

[Average Manatee]

The point of RPG elements is specifically to take away options from the player. If you started Dark Souls and had every spell, weapon, armor usable from the beginning the game would be throwing way too much complexity at the player at once, necessitating the removal of a lot of these options in order to make it manageable. Similarly if you start a game like Diablo 2 with a character that can use all abilities from all classes on top of finding max-level equipment with 10 modifiers each, the game would be way too complex for newcomers. By restricting the player to a specific field of capabilities the devs can add more and more depth and complexity to this field without burdening the whole game for everyone. It also allows more powerful and distinctive options for different builds so long as they are effectively mutually exclusive to avoid game-breaking powers.

That said, the stuff above is the theory, in practice RPG mechanics are fairly consistently awful when added to games. The God of War example is truly awful and I didn't particularly appreciate the levelling in SotN either (didn't really take anything away IMO, but I only played it once and I'm sure if I replayed without 100% clearing everything they would suck). Even plenty of games that are considered "RPGs" would be better off removing/minimizing the effect of levels and abilities. The Witcher games come to mind as a good example since I played them recently, getting consistently worse the more important levels and builds became. TW 2&3 both have mods to remove 90% of the bullshit, which is a massive improvement.

 

[Jacob]

You're talking out of your ass regarding SoTN and Dark Souls, just saying.

SoTN is a weaker game due to rpg fluff. You now have to go back and modify the game for it to be better.

No, it's not. How is the "RPG fluff" you mentioned making the game weaker? It gave more options to play the game with, how is that bad?

Besides it's the same with Aria anyway, you got souls instead of spells, there are weapon loots and leveling on Aria too.

And how is Dark Souls' RPG elements not improving combat? How is the spear, the sword, and the greatsword "attack and affect enemies in the same manner?" Dark Souls also happen to have the load and poise mechanic which does rely on those RPG stats, which you failed to mention at all. And it does matter much more than adding numbers to each of your hit. Take away the RPG mechanics and you're now playing an superman who happens to be good at using all weapons known to man, masters of all spells, blessed by the gods, and could carry heavy weapons while moving like a gymnast. Kinda agree with what Manatee said, it is there to limit your options. But it's also to give you a character development system, like in traditional RPG, in an action game.

Of course, you can ignore these RPG elements, just like in some RPGs you can low level run it, but it's a challenge run.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

for games owned by companies like EA it means they can add grind mechanics with lootboxes & $$ shops to singleplayer games

 

[Roqua]

I wonder who did that

It makes sense - they love covering blatant non-rpgs with lite rpg elements in grpg.

 

[Shinji]

Usually when people say "rpg mechanic" they mean "interaction based on numbers", which is to say: "based on the value of x, outcome y may or may not happen".

Unpredictability is a very useful way of making a game interesting -- if done right.

In a RPG, you usually have a character with a set of attributes, and each of these attributes has a certain value. These numbers usually define what your character is good at, or which actions he is able to perform.
So if you add a lot of points to "Strenght", then your character will probably be able to move that big rock out of the way, or maybe he'll be able to carry more stuff with him. As a consequence, he might not be that much of a smart guy.

It's up to the developer to decide which attributes will be relevant to his game. Realms of Arkania has a ton of attributes to choose. Some useful in combat, some useful outisde of combat.

Realms of Arkania has a lot of interactions that requires different skills. There are certain places that might require your characters to be good at swimming or climbing, for example. There is a place in the second game that is infested with orcs, and you might want to only take characters that can sneak past them, because you stand no chance fighting all of them. Also, if you want to survive, better have at least one character that can hunt and look for herbs and water.

So as you can see, Realms of Arkania has multiple interactions that require different attributes. "Multiple interactions" is a keyword here.
A game such as Dark Souls also has a good amount of character attributes, but unlike Realms of Arkania, these attributes are used only for one single interaction: combat.

Since it is only used for one type of interaction, you can see the use of attributes as a way to add variety to how the player can approach a specific problem and solve it. If you play as a mage you will approach enemies in a different way than if you were playing as a warrior. The interaction is still the same though: you fighting against enemies. What changes is how it happens (to some extent).

One good thing about this is that it allows players to experiment with combat, and choose what works best for them.

On the other hand, since Dark Souls is an action game, you don't even need those attributes to beat the game, which shows that it favors player skill over character skill. And it makes sense in this case I think, because unlike Realms of Arkania, you play as a single character -- not a party of characters -- making player skill more important.

Obviously, just because a game has more interactions, it doesn't mean that it's better or more complex. Skyrim allows you to cook, make potions nd marry a NPC, but it is really simple in execution and adds nothing meaningful to the experience or to the overall system.

Also, just because a game has "interaction based on numbers", it doesn't mean that it is a RPG.

In (popamole) AAA or casual games, like others have said, having skill trees (or similar features) it's just a way to add a false sense of depth, to make things look more complex than what they actually are, and to fool the player into thinking they are getting "better" at the game, as an attempt to make them feel better and rewarded in order to keep playing the game. But that's just a dumb trend.

 

[aweigh]

tell me when the thread begins to equivocate Contra spread-gun powerup with rpg mechanics

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG