What drove BG3's success, game mechanics or emotional engagement?

[Arthandas]

 

[TheDarkUrge]

BG3 was heavily carried by act 1, which was near perfect. It had exploration, unique solutions to quests, fun stuff to just run into, and a braindead simple plothook to get people invested in the story. The co-op also deserves a mention, it really helps to have a friend teach you how to play the mechanics if you've never done a game like that before. And of course pushing your friends off a cliff or throwing explosive barrels at them is quite funny.

When I used

act1

featherfall to find the underdark after killing the spider

that was just really amazing and up there with my favorite CRPG moments like seeing the Age of Decadence final boss for the first time. Unfortunately immediately into act 2 is when it started to decline hard, but act 1 is enough to convince people it's a 10/10 game to recommend it to friends. Frontloading quality is devious but really works to get the viral buzz going.

Also I never had any annoyance with the gay characters because I played dark urge and bit the gay rapist wizard's arm off in the portal, and never saved the bear because I sided with the Drow. So if you are bitching about the gay characters but didn't choose an RP path where you would genocide them, I consider that 100% a skill issue.

 

[Fedora Master]

The game is 100% designed to appeal to romohomos first. So it was emotional engagement. The majority of players have never even touched the original series, or previous Larian games, so name recognition is only a minor factor.

 

[Fedora Master]

Today's generation of tasteless losers is much larger than the last

I wouldn't say "tasteless losers", just people who have no real frame of reference. If someone's first "RPG" is Fallout 3, of course they're gonna think stuff like BG3 is the shits.

 

[Poseidon00]

Cinematic cutscenes, voice acting, high production values, good graphics, sex. BG3 is a spiritual successor to DAO, and is popular for the same reasons DAO was. Venn diagram of BG3 fandoms and the Dragon Age fandom may not be a circle, but it's up there.

This is really what comes down to. My normie friends know me as "the DnD guy" so they love to talk to me about what they like about BG3 and it is nearly always the companions and relationships. The people I hear from are female so take that into account

 

[Lemming42]

Wouldn't be so sure about that. Per general trends in the developed societies that play the most games the average RPG fan is even more likely to be socially isolated and sexually unfulfilled than before. The relative success of Skyrim "adult" themed modpacks sorry collections points to this. The most popular one was at nearly a million downloads before it got hidden.

BG3's success will probably legitimise introducing more explicit sexual content into mainstream titles. There's certainly a market there if lonely nerds get a somewhat socially acceptable way to access a simulacrum of human sexuality. No more the shame of going gooner and getting into ghetto-budget porn games or mods.

I'm not sure, for a few reasons. Even among people who mod sexual content into games, I wonder how many of them would actually want a game dev to put that in as part of the base game. Skyrim sex mods might be mildly popular, but if Todd had shipped the game with a feature where you can walk up to any NPC you've just met and say [Sex] and have it play a janky animation of your PC and the NPC wriggling around on the ground before snapping back upright and never mentioning it again, it would have been one of the most widely-mocked things in history. The memes would have been so overwhelming that we'd still be posting them today.

There's always going to be a big psychological difference between something you've done under your own volition and something the devs have actually put into the game; the former leaves control with the player while the latter can always quickly feel like unwanted pandering, or even become outright upsetting. Fanfiction strikes me as another obivous example aside from modding - a great many fanfiction authors would definitely not want their writings to be "canon" and included in the works they're writing for.

For something like sexuality, I think most people want to be able to opt-in to the experience and then control and direct it themselves, rather than have a creepy game dev come up with something that players are probably going to find unappealing at best and offensive at worst, and then have it forced on them. BG3 actually seems at least dimly aware of this, in that it tends to respect the player's wishes - if you tell party members to fuck off when they start flirting with you, they'll never do it again, if you try to get out of the pain cultist room in the Goblin camp as soon as you realise what's going on then the game just lets you leave immediately and doesn't bring it up again, etc. If the game was anywhere near as rich in overt and unavoidable sexual content as half the Codex makes out, I think quite a lot of players would have dropped it. It might be made by creepy Belgian perverts, but in a 100+ hour game I only spent about 5 - 10 accumulated minutes actually feeling like a creepy Belgian pervert was breathing down my neck. The sexual content is pretty sparse and easy to ignore unless you actively hunt it out, much moreso than in something like Fo2 where the game is shoving it down your gullet the instant you step into New Reno.

Aside from that though I get the feeling that the genitalia selection is less to do with getting people aroused (because is anyone aroused by seeing a few badly-modeled flaccid genitals stuck onto a model of a character wearing a blank expression? it looks like something out of a medical textbook) and more about a quick and easy way to get people to call the game "trans-inclusive" or w/e (especially as the game offers practically nothing else in this regard, and thus would probably be considered "suspicious" by online activists) as well as get other people laughing and memeing because Penis B is funny. Someone at Larian - or WotC, who knows - probably realised it'd take no effort to include and would get people talking about the game. The fact that it's entirely cosmetic and has quite literally no impact on anything at all in the rest of the game makes it feel like something that was whipped up and tacked on one afternoon.

 

[Fedora Master]

Cinematic cutscenes, voice acting, high production values, good graphics, sex. BG3 is a spiritual successor to DAO, and is popular for the same reasons DAO was. Venn diagram of BG3 fandoms and the Dragon Age fandom may not be a circle, but it's up there.

Would you say that... BG3 is the New Shit?

 

[Sigourn]

I hear no one talk about the complexity and richness of the game's gameplay.
I hear everyone talk about the romances.

Guess which one drove the game to success.

When someone asks if they enjoy D:OS2 based on their enjoyment of BG3, you know where the audience comes from, i.e. someone who hasn't played cRPGs their entire life.

 

[processdaemon]

Regarding the nudity, there is an option that I believe pops up either when you start a new game or open the game for the first time that lets you disable all genitalia, including from character creation. You can also set it through the menu if you somehow miss it then. If you select it (which I did, so I know it works) then genital options disappear from the character creator and everyone's modesty is preserved by fig leaves for the rest of the game. So pretty much what I'm saying is that if you spent the game getting eyefuls of cock it's because you *chose* to.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I think series benefit from a snowball effect over time, the earlier games develop a small but loyal fanbase, then suddenly it breaks out and becomes a mainstream hit. The Witcher is a good example; all the games have an emphasis on dialogue, cutscenes, and getting laid, but the third one is the one that broke out into a big hit. Cyperpunk's sales were also heavily boosted by CDPR's existing Witcher fanbase.

Larian also has a Zero Fucks Given attitude. They've never acted like they want anyone's approval, and instead just do what they love and don't care what you think. Sometimes you have to be willing to do stupid shit like a moron and have so much fun doing it eventually everyone jumps in with you.

 

[agris]

I think series benefit from a snowball effect over time, the earlier games develop a small but loyal fanbase, then suddenly it breaks out and becomes a mainstream hit. The Witcher is a good example; all the games have an emphasis on dialogue, cutscenes, and getting laid, but the third one is the one that broke out into a big hit. Cyperpunk's sales were also heavily boosted by CDPR's existing Witcher fanbase.

https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-early-access-changes-player-data-feedback-larian

“They're all horny, I can tell you that,” laughs Swen Vincke, founder of Baldur’s Gate 3 developer Larian Studios. “I think we have one percent [of players] that's not interested [in romances], so we've put a lot of effort into making sure the parts are there. So anybody who tells you the opposite, I can tell you that's not true.”

 

[Fedora Master]

I hear no one talk about the complexity and richness of the game's gameplay.

Because 5E is neither rich nor complex.

 

[NecroLord]

I'm playing Temple of Elemental Evil and it shits all over BG3 and 5E...
A wonderfully tactical, isometric and prestigious cRPG fit only for gentlemen of class and distinction.

 

[jaekl]

I'm playing Temple of Elemental Evil and it shits all over BG3 and 5E...
A wonderfully tactical, isometric and prestigious cRPG fit only for gentlemen of class and distinction.

Don't forget about the least retarded romance in video game history.

 

[Fedora Master]

I'm playing Temple of Elemental Evil and it shits all over BG3 and 5E...
A wonderfully tactical, isometric and prestigious cRPG fit only for gentlemen of class and distinction.

Yes, but... Hommlet.

 

[Tyranicon]

My balanced take is that I'm happy a D&D turn-based cRPG is one of the best-selling games of 2023, basically pushed nu-BioWare's shit in, and the Baldur's Gate franchise is now a household name.

I may not be too happy in how it did these things, but let's face it, pandering to a bunch of angry grognards was never going to achieve all of the above.

 

[agris]

My balanced take is that I'm happy a D&D turn-based cRPG is one of the best-selling games of 2023, basically pushed nu-BioWare's shit in, and the Baldur's Gate franchise is now a household name.

I may not be too happy in how it did these things, but let's face it, pandering to a bunch of angry grognards was never going to achieve all of the above.

you misunderstand, this thread is about how wrong Infinitron is

 

[Justicar]

SHILLING

 

[Infinitron]

My balanced take is that I'm happy a D&D turn-based cRPG is one of the best-selling games of 2023, basically pushed nu-BioWare's shit in, and the Baldur's Gate franchise is now a household name.

I may not be too happy in how it did these things, but let's face it, pandering to a bunch of angry grognards was never going to achieve all of the above.

you misunderstand, this thread is about how wrong Infinitron is

I have nothing to add beyond what Strange Fellow posted here: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...-or-emotional-engagement.149887/#post-8923586

But actually, my original post wasn't really about what made BG3 a huge commercial hit. It was primarily an admonishment of people for forgetting that Larian is a gameplay-focused studio. Swen Vincke, all the time: "Systemics, systemics, systemics!"

Secondarily, I also claimed that BioWare failed because they lacked a clear vision for gameplay. In other words, I said that a videogame studio needs to care about gameplay in order to survive in the long term (this shouldn't be controversial!). I didn't say that would be enough to produce a mega-hit.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

If Larian listened to market feedback they'd never have made a turn-based game. Sven did it because he likes it, period.

 

[Baron Tahn]

So pretty much what I'm saying is that if you spent the game getting eyefuls of cock it's because you *chose* to.

As long as its equal opportunities tits n' ass as well that's fine! Oh wait...

 

[karoliner]

Shills on the internet.

 

[Maxie]

in Baulder's Gay 3 you can pet a dog

 

[NecroLord]

I'm playing Temple of Elemental Evil and it shits all over BG3 and 5E...
A wonderfully tactical, isometric and prestigious cRPG fit only for gentlemen of class and distinction.

Yes, but... Hommlet.

It is manageable.
Just go to the Deklo Grove or do some World Map travelling to get some random encounters and grind some XP if Hommlet starts to bore you.
Then go to the Moathouse, that's when the game really starts to shine.
The Moathouse is one of the best designed starting dungeons in a video game.

 

[HumanTotemPole]

“They're all horny, I can tell you that,” laughs Swen Vincke, founder of Baldur’s Gate 3 developer Larian Studios. “I think we have one percent [of players] that's not interested [in romances], so we've put a lot of effort into making sure the parts are there. So anybody who tells you the opposite, I can tell you that's not true.”

As I've noted, serious amount of juice in that lemon if anyone gets to squeezing. That said I can't imagine the tastes of the early access crowd exactly matched those who bought on release.

Wouldn't be so sure about that. Per general trends in the developed societies that play the most games the average RPG fan is even more likely to be socially isolated and sexually unfulfilled than before. The relative success of Skyrim "adult" themed modpacks sorry collections points to this. The most popular one was at nearly a million downloads before it got hidden.

BG3's success will probably legitimise introducing more explicit sexual content into mainstream titles. There's certainly a market there if lonely nerds get a somewhat socially acceptable way to access a simulacrum of human sexuality. No more the shame of going gooner and getting into ghetto-budget porn games or mods.

I'm not sure, for a few reasons. Even among people who mod sexual content into games, I wonder how many of them would actually want a game dev to put that in as part of the base game. Skyrim sex mods might be mildly popular, but if Todd had shipped the game with a feature where you can walk up to any NPC you've just met and say [Sex] and have it play a janky animation of your PC and the NPC wriggling around on the ground before snapping back upright and never mentioning it again, it would have been one of the most widely-mocked things in history. The memes would have been so overwhelming that we'd still be posting them today.

There's always going to be a big psychological difference between something you've done under your own volition and something the devs have actually put into the game; the former leaves control with the player while the latter can always quickly feel like unwanted pandering, or even become outright upsetting. Fanfiction strikes me as another obivous example aside from modding - a great many fanfiction authors would definitely not want their writings to be "canon" and included in the works they're writing for.

For something like sexuality, I think most people want to be able to opt-in to the experience and then control and direct it themselves, rather than have a creepy game dev come up with something that players are probably going to find unappealing at best and offensive at worst, and then have it forced on them. BG3 actually seems at least dimly aware of this, in that it tends to respect the player's wishes - if you tell party members to fuck off when they start flirting with you, they'll never do it again, if you try to get out of the pain cultist room in the Goblin camp as soon as you realise what's going on then the game just lets you leave immediately and doesn't bring it up again, etc. If the game was anywhere near as rich in overt and unavoidable sexual content as half the Codex makes out, I think quite a lot of players would have dropped it. It might be made by creepy Belgian perverts, but in a 100+ hour game I only spent about 5 - 10 accumulated minutes actually feeling like a creepy Belgian pervert was breathing down my neck. The sexual content is pretty sparse and easy to ignore unless you actively hunt it out, much moreso than in something like Fo2 where the game is shoving it down your gullet the instant you step into New Reno.

Aside from that though I get the feeling that the genitalia selection is less to do with getting people aroused (because is anyone aroused by seeing a few badly-modeled flaccid genitals stuck onto a model of a character wearing a blank expression? it looks like something out of a medical textbook) and more about a quick and easy way to get people to call the game "trans-inclusive" or w/e (especially as the game offers practically nothing else in this regard, and thus would probably be considered "suspicious" by online activists) as well as get other people laughing and memeing because Penis B is funny. Someone at Larian - or WotC, who knows - probably realised it'd take no effort to include and would get people talking about the game. The fact that it's entirely cosmetic and has quite literally no impact on anything at all in the rest of the game makes it feel like something that was whipped up and tacked on one afternoon.

I hope you're right man but I can't help but feel like the ground has shifted significantly. A protracted romance scene with a mindflayer is literally LoversLab-tier perverse, you'd think its mere inclusion would be gross and off-putting to the average consumer and yet it's barely been remarked upon. Not a decade ago it would have probably resulted in significant backlash but now it's somehow banal to the point that they used clips during an award presentation montage.