What is the appeal of playing as “evil”?

[dukeofwoodberry]

If you're an adventurer with limited resources and you constantly want to use your limited resources to help others at the cost of your own mission and objectives there are consequences.

That scenario assumes the game is full of opportunities to squander your resources like that, I can't remember playing any such game. Also, sometimes helping others can be seen as an investment, making them help you later.

Its literally always handled that way. Only rewards for going out of your way to help.

 

[flabbyjack]

Having the CHOICE to play as evil is a hallmark of games that have customizability, choice, and consequence.

Most games maximize their mainstream appeal by forcing you into a lawful good paladin hero saves the day role. These games historically have you 'on a rail' and the game plays like a themepark ride. Go from A to B to C, while saving baby penguins along the way.

Another example: when you have an in-game house, you can usually decorate it with cutesy houseplants and shit. Think of the extra effort it takes to add skulls, etc as placeable. That's an indicator that someone actually cared when making the game.

 

[Blaine]

The rewards for evil behavior in computer games should generally be material, and potentially quite lucrative, with hidden pitfalls along the way (the townsfolk rising up against you, for example, or losing the trust of a key character), but also the possibility of completely getting away with it all.

The rewards for good behavior should mostly be the satisfaction of being forthright and upstanding, with minimal material gain. Materially, this is hard mode, which is a bit of an issue because most RPGs deeply emphasize the importance of equipment. There may be hidden benefits along the way (for example, gaining an important office because your honorable behavior has been noticed by someone/something important), but there's still the possibility of simply ending up a doormat with little to show for it.

Even the above is far too simplistic and a poor reflection of reality, but I too agree with the general consensus: In the context of games, you're mostly rewarded for being good, and heavily punished for being evil. It's kind of the opposite of the above: Your reward for being evil is the satisfaction of acting like an asshole (but even then, Josh Sawyer is there like a fucking kindergarten teacher to make sure you're aware he thinks you're being bad, if you'll all recall New Vegas), while your reward for being good is... everything else, except maybe access to an evil companion or two.

Which amounts to the developers treating you like a lab rat, essentially. In reality, a complete piece of shit can get all of the money, all of the bitches, all of the guns, all of the mercenaries, all of the space in the history books, accomplish the mission, fuck your mother, and kill your dog, and there ain't shit anyone's gonna do about it. Many such cases throughout human history.

 

[Farya]

The rewards for evil behavior in computer games should generally be material, and potentially quite lucrative, with hidden pitfalls along the way (the townsfolk rising up against you, for example, or losing the trust of a key character), but also the possibility of completely getting away with it all.

The rewards for good behavior should mostly be the satisfaction of being forthright and upstanding, with minimal material gain. Materially, this is hard mode, which is a bit of an issue because most RPGs deeply emphasize the importance of equipment. There may be hidden benefits along the way (for example, gaining an important office because your honorable behavior has been noticed by someone/something important), but there's still the possibility of simply ending up a doormat with little to show for it.

Even the above is far too simplistic and a poor reflection of reality, but I too agree with the general consensus: In the context of games, you're mostly rewarded for being good, and heavily punished for being evil. It's kind of the opposite of the above: Your reward for being evil is the satisfaction of acting like an asshole, while your reward for being good is... everything else.

Which amounts to the developers treating you like a lab rat, essentially. In reality, a complete piece of shit can get all of the money, all of the bitches, all of the guns, all of the mercenaries, all of the space in the history books, accomplish the mission, fuck your mother, and kill your dog, and there ain't shit anyone's gonna do about it. Many such cases throughout human history.

Reminds me Mass Effect, third game in particular where your choice of curing the genophage is not a moral choice with clear answer. In fact it depends strongly from your previous choices. Had you kept the Wrex and Eve alive? If you did, it's a correct choice to help krogan, because under such new leadership it is possible for them to actually abandon their old barbaric ways and become something more civilized and fitting into the Council space as society. And they will gladly help you fight the Reapers as well.
If you didn't, you might be forced to sully your hands with shooting Mordin in the back and going on with the salarian plan to sabotage the cure - because Wreav is nothing like his brother, he is a warmongering barbarian who intends to start another war with council races, proving his enemies right in their decision to sabotage the cure in first place.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Blaine I am generally in agreement, but I think the mechanism for good characters to get their gear is by being worthy of an Excalibur equivalent. Items where one must be true of heart. Also, a MotB type mechanic where the good path is more difficult and sacrificial but has greater "spiritual" rewards in the form of bonuses also works.

 

[jungl]

Alpha protocol, jade empire, Fable, kotor are all more fun playing evil then good. The shock and awe story telling is more entertaining then good path. Being able to beat up everyone and use characters strength to full potential is based. Being a goody two shoes chosen one on a leash is cuck fetish roleplay. Why be superman if you can't be super.

 

[solemgar]

Alpha protocol, jade empire, Fable, kotor are all more fun playing evil then good. The shock and awe story telling is more entertaining then good path. Being able to beat up everyone and use characters strength to full potential is based. Being a goody two shoes chosen one on a leash is cuck fetish roleplay. Why be superman if you can't be super.

Alpha protocol evil path is actually quite entertaining

 

[Dark Souls II]

Tyranny's evilness is greatly exaggerated.

dunno man, its a game where you drop a nuke

Do you know how many nukes have I dropped in Hearts of Iron IV, on the United States of America?

Launching all of them form Mexico, after landing a naval invasion in Panama and tiresomely moving all the way up north through Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras and Guatemala?

And it still didn't do shit, faggot yankees still wouldn't surrender after I nuked every city in the southern US like a dozen times. The game is broken.

 

[solemgar]

Tyranny's evilness is greatly exaggerated.

dunno man, its a game where you drop a nuke

Do you know how many nukes have I dropped in Hearts of Iron IV, on the United States of America?

Launching all of them form Mexico, after landing a naval invasion in Panama and tiresomely moving all the way up north through Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras and Guatemala?

And it still didn't do shit, faggot yankees still wouldn't surrender after I nuked every city in the southern US like a dozen times. The game is broken.

All that is crap. The epitome of evilness is this:

This is PURE EVIL

GLORY TO KANE, OUR TRUE SAVIOR

 

[Serious_Business]

Because I am too good and sensitive IRL

It's true, man. I love you all. Except when you breathe, act and exist in general. Then the hate rises. If only all these mooks were more disciplined... like the undead... yes, truly necromancy is always the answer. It's for your own good buddy. Gotta put you down. It'll only last a moment, and then we can conquer nations together

 

[Storyfag]

Tyranny's evilness is greatly exaggerated.

dunno man, its a game where you drop a nuke

Do you know how many nukes have I dropped in Hearts of Iron IV, on the United States of America?

Launching all of them form Mexico, after landing a naval invasion in Panama and tiresomely moving all the way up north through Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras and Guatemala?

And it still didn't do shit, faggot yankees still wouldn't surrender after I nuked every city in the southern US like a dozen times. The game is broken.

All that is crap. The epitome of evilness is this:

This is PURE EVIL

GLORY TO KANE, OUR TRUE SAVIOR

Kane LIVES!




This is now a C&C thread.

 

[Tyranicon]

But Kane was right though.

All portrayal of him being a sinister figure was just GDI propaganda.

Also unrelated, but C&C being great can be directly correlated to how much footage of tits exist in their games. Hmmmm.

 

[solemgar]

But Kane was right though.

All portrayal of him being a sinister figure was just GDI propaganda.

Also unrelated, but C&C being great can be directly correlated to how much footage of tits exist in their games. Hmmmm.

You see ? We just found a game where playing evil was way more satisfying

 

[Storyfag]

But Kane was right though.

All portrayal of him being a sinister figure was just GDI propaganda.

Of course. The Messiah would lead Mankind to Ascension, if not for the treachery of GDI!

Also unrelated, but C&C being great can be directly correlated to how much footage of tits exist in their games. Hmmmm.

Up for debate. Tib-series didn't go boobs galore at all. Kept being good all the way to C&C 3, the final installment. Red Alert got worse and worse with each installment.

 

[Tyranicon]

Up for debate. Tib-series didn't go boobs galore at all. Kept being good all the way to C&C 3, the final installment. Red Alert got worse and worse with each installment.

It wasn't as in your face as later Red Alerts, but tits have been present since c&c 1.

I was actually reminded of it because of the clip from Tib Dawn above.

Tasteful!

 

[Falksi]

My preference is those few rare games which don't telegraph their choices as good or evil, and just give the player a set of choices which seem natural. I'm a mix of both, playing strictly one way or the other is just weird.

 

[Blaine]

Blaine I am generally in agreement, but I think the mechanism for good characters to get their gear is by being worthy of an Excalibur equivalent. Items where one must be true of heart. Also, a MotB type mechanic where the good path is more difficult and sacrificial but has greater "spiritual" rewards in the form of bonuses also works.

You're preaching to the choir, because Quest for Glory I (VGA, not EGA/parser) and Quest for Glory III were the first computer RPGs I ever played; shortly after, it was Betrayal at Krondor and Quest for Glory II, EGA/parser (and it's the best of the three, in my view). Prior to that, I had played first-edition D&D from the original manuals that had been in the library of my summer camp since the 1970s. Truly an inclined start to my RPG-playing career. Little did I know then, it was mostly downhill from there!

It's a pretty fair concept. The paladin is subject to more restrictions than the fighter, but has an easier time against evil creatures. It's conditional power, in other words. As a matter of fact, original D&D outlined all sorts of restrictions for paladins, like having to pay tithes to the church on the regular. Or was that AD&D/2nd? I think it was original D&D, actually.

As tends to be the case in real life, I find the best approach in games (that allow it by having a semblance of nuance) to be balance: I'm a little bit bad, a little bit good, and a little bit neutral. I have a code and a role to play, but occasionally my character might bullshit himself about what he's doing because he wants that big gun so badly. Occasionally, I might be very bad or very good; I might even justify it, for example by murder of a character who's in my way... because that character is no saint and kicked a cat one time, honest. It's not because he's got the key to the guard shack. I get away with some things, but take the fall for others. Some of my ending slides are good outcomes, some are okay, some are bad.

 

[Rincewind]

Have you heard of the game Dungeon Keeper? Immensely popular game series.

Can you appreciate black comedy? If it "does not make sense" to you, nobody can "explain" it to you; it would be like trying to explain a joke to someone who doesn't get it.

I have a hunch you wouldn't find Monty Python's Flying Circus, IT Crowd, or Fawlty Towers funny. That's fine and no offense, someone people just are unable to appreciate dark humor.

So yeah, same goes for evil characters. I generally enjoy the storyline of evil plotting motherfuckers the most in shows like Game of Thrones. Lol, even in Dallas the schemings of JR was the most enjoyable aspect for me as a kid. His brother was nice, sure, but also boring and predictable.

 

[Fargus]

Fuck nuanced evil, from time to time i like to maraud and sack peaceful caravans with plasma grenades and punch junkies and prostitutes in the eyes with spiked knuckles in Fallout 2. I like to cripple people on purpose. I also like to catch slaves for Metzger, get high on jet and murder children with c4. It's hilarious. I never really cared about poor starving Arroyo and Hakunin's telepathic bitching even when i did high karma runs.

Games that let you have this kind of fun are the best rpgs.

 

[NecroLord]

Fuck nuanced evil, from time to time i like to maraud and sack peaceful caravans with plasma grenades and punch junkies and prostitutes in the eyes with spiked knuckles in Fallout 2. I like to cripple people on purpose. I also like to catch slaves for Metzger, get high on jet and murder children with c4. It's hilarious. I never really cared about poor starving Arroyo and Hakunin's telepathic bitching even when i did high karma runs.

Games that let you have this kind of fun are the best rpgs.

The New Reno prostitutes randomly use Jet if you are in a fight on the streets of New Reno.
Always funny.
They even helped me once when I was fighting the Salvatores.

 

[Blaine]

Fuck nuanced evil, from time to time i like to maraud and sack peaceful caravans with plasma grenades and punch junkies and prostitutes in the eyes with spiked knuckles in Fallout 2. I like to cripple people on purpose. I also like to catch slaves for Metzger, get high on jet and murder children with c4. It's hilarious. I never really cared about poor starving Arroyo and Hakunin's telepathic bitching even when i did high karma runs.

Games that let you have this kind of fun are the best rpgs.

A nuanced system won't stop you from doing that at all—it'll give it more meaning, if anything. Life is fully nuanced, and at this very moment there are warlords out there Shanghaiing children to be their soldiers, purchasing minor politicians, stealing anything they can, burning anything they can't, enslaving anyone able-bodied, having the extremities chopped off of anyone who isn't useful to them as a message to all who'd think of opposing them, and most definitely raping anything bipedal and alive (and possibly some things not bipedal and/or alive).

They're probably even burning their plastic! Can you imagine how much microplastic that releases into the environment?

 

[Iucounu]

Another way to define Evil might be "whatever the writers don't like". After all the writer's morality will permeate the games they make. Viewed that way, any attempt to play in a different way than the writers intended must be considered evil or at least heresy.

 

[Kabas]

If you're an adventurer with limited resources and you constantly want to use your limited resources to help others at the cost of your own mission and objectives there are consequences.

That scenario assumes the game is full of opportunities to squander your resources like that, I can't remember playing any such game. Also, sometimes helping others can be seen as an investment, making them help you later.

Its literally always handled that way. Only rewards for going out of your way to help.

This talk just reminded me of one of the worst examples of this i have seen.

A dude made a review on Greedfall(modern popamole type rpg) and he played it two times with two different characters. One was a goody two shoes who made sure to waste as much time as possible on every single side quest and another was an evil pragmatic one who prioritized main quest above all.

There comes a part in the game where you must rush to the docks in a besieged city before villain escapes on boat but you can make a detour and spend some time saving people first. Try to guess which character failed to reach the villain in time.

 

[Rieser]

I only play evil characters if I get to be a sex pest.

 

[Maxie]

we've had this thread in March, I even made a wildly popular and charismatic post there

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/rpgs-with-the-most-satisfying-evil-paths.152938/#post-9377224