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1eyedking What is the core of what makes an RPG?

smaug

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From my understanding the core of an RPG is a complete stat based driven system (I.E character-driven skill based on stats.). Is this correct as the core principle of an RPG?

And if it is, then “RPGs” such as The Witcher 3 isn’t a real RPG, moreover, it’s a hybrid, I think.

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Cryomancer

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There are a lot of threads about it. IMO an RPG needs to have mechanical and narrative character building. Stat is an way to measure your characters capabilities in most RPG's. Only in Barbie Dressing games such as Diablo 3, your stats only reflects the quality of your gear, since your IQ/muscle mass is determined not by the choices on making your char, but by the boots that he is wearing and everyone is a clone without gear.

Cannot be Tamed has an interesting video about it.



Witcher 3 has interesting NARRATIVE character building and has an (poorly implemented) mechanical character building. Old school Dungeon Crawlers like M&M VI, have amazing Mechanical Character building, but poor narrative character building.
 

Machocruz

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Who says there is a core principle? There are a lot of things going on in a (full featured) RPG that are important to the experience. Maybe you can reduce it to several pillars that are fundamentally important above other features, maybe, but I don't agree there is a single core. The What Is question is doomed to fail because a What question isn't suitable for the answer people want.
 

Mud'

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For me a RPG is like a buger (i am hungry as fuck).

You need to have the bread, the cheese and the meat to make a burger.

So you have the bread (character creation & stats), the cheese (XP and loot) and in my opinion the meat is the whole choices and consequences or overall consequences in the world after you do X thing, the equivalent of having a DM where you are constantly weaving the story in some way or another and the possibility of using your stats to pass stat checks.

Problem is, just a handful of games fulfill those characteristics, either way no answer is going to be good enough because everyone has different feelings towards what the fuck a RPG is.
 
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The simplest way to look at it is

Decision making - character identity, equipment, exploration, story, abilities, and so on. Only matters if you're given a choice. If everyone plays the same character or goes to the same areas in the same order, that's not a choice.

Reactivity/consequence/simulation - the above choices need to mean something; they have an effect on the character or game world, large or small. It may change how you look, how you play, the areas you can access, the story events you get, the characters you meet, how you fight and so on.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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From my understanding the core of an RPG is a complete stat based driven system (I.E character-driven skill based on stats.). Is this correct as the core principle of an RPG?
Role-Playing Games derived from miniatures squad-based wargaming but added character progression/customization to equipment/inventory, kept the combat elements, and added exploration elements. The RPG genre is defined by the combination of these various game mechanics, not by one single "core" game mechanic. Games that are sufficiently close to the archetypal RPG in these game mechanics are part of the RPG genre, and as a game's design moves away from these game mechanics it will eventually cross a threshold placing it in some other genre (or hybrid genre). Having a set of statistics used in determining combat outcomes is just one part of the complete set of RPG mechanics.

DnD0Eto2Ever2.JPG
 
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Prime Junta

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it's when you're playing a role :happytrollboy:

more seriously

rpgs are like porn, hard to define but you know it when you see it
 

Egosphere

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character creation, abilities of character defined by numbers and not player skill, small in scale (1 person, or a party of several, but not more than that). c&c, reactivity etc. are optional.

The hardest question to answer is how to demarcate rpgs from squad tactics games like JA2, or whether these two are joined at the hip.
 

Alex

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From my understanding the core of an RPG is a complete stat based driven system (I.E character-driven skill based on stats.). Is this correct as the core principle of an RPG?

And if it is, then “RPGs” such as The Witcher 3 isn’t a real RPG, moreover, it’s a hybrid, I think.

Vault Dweller

No, this is not a troll thread.

Hi smaug! Sorry for taking so long to reply.

Anyway, I think you are wrong here. I don't think statuses (or traits, or attributes, or any other name for the numbers that describe your character's abilities) are the core of an RPG. I think having a stat driven gameplay is neither necessary nor sufficient to make a game a CRPG, or a tabletop RPG or whatever. Mind you, I am not here trying to say these stats are not important. I think they are a very important tool in the creation of such games, in fact I have little interest in games that remove this aspect, either tabletop or computer. But when we are defining something, it is important to consider its genus and its specific differences; that is what kind of thing it is and what makes it unique against the others of its kind.

First, I will consider tabletop role playing games, since that is where the name came from; and also since I think computer RPGs can be defined by those tabletop games. Now as I understand it, a pen and paper RPG is in the genus of story games. Story games, by their turn, belong to the genus of both storytelling and gaming, both of which are human activities specified by their purpose (telling an entertaining story and competing in some form respectively). Story games then are literally what their name implies, the telling of a story and the playing of a game at the same time (as opposed of doing both activities in turns or in some other structured way). There are a lot of games in this genus, although RPGs are probably the most well known. Most other types of games seem to be party games where you use cards to tell some kind of story or to play some kind of riddle (which will also fit in our "storytelling" definition, we are using "storytelling" in a very comprehensive way).

At any rate, a roleplaying game is different from other storytelling games in that the players are assigned a specific, in story, role. This can be a bit messy, though. Some games have no problem with each player having several roles (that is, several characters). In most of these games, one of the players will play a very important storytelling role (that is, not an in story role, but a role in the game itself), that of the game master. In others, players will alternate what kind of roles they play. In Ars Magica, for instance, only one player at a time should play the role of a wizard, even though all players have a wizard character. In Polaris, or in some ways to play Aces & Eights, the meta role of GM is divided among players. In some games, GMs will even have their own player character, playing as other players besides doing the duties of GM (this isn't usually a good idea, but some people do it nevertheless).

All of this is fairly high level, that is, it doesn't tell us much how to make a good RPG. Going back to the issue of stats, it might not be clear from this view why having stats might be a good thing for such a game. In this case, stats might be a good thing in an RPG because they give players an interface for both their characters and the game world. For instance, in GURPS a sword skill of 14 means that you have a parrying skill with that sword of 10. That means you have a chance of 50% of avoiding attacks with your sword that would otherwise hit you. From the point of view of a game, this is a pretty good boni, but from the storytelling viewpoint, it would still be foolhardy to try to make light of your adversary by lazily parrying with one hand while covering an yawn with the other. A skill of 10 for parry is pretty good, but nowhere that good.

Now, to go back to computer games, I am afraid I don't have a very good specific difference for them. I think computer games (at least single player computer games) are a genus, but I am not even sure that RPGs form a specific characteristic of that genus. It might be instead that it is simply an aspect that games of any other genre might have. I say this because I suspect that the different types of computer games have their specific difference according to their gameplay. Games that require spatial awareness and reflexes like platformers are a different type of game than strategy games like X-Com. Although you might still use spatial awareness in such game, the context changes the type of challenge you might have.

As far as I can tell, however, RPGs don't have a unique kind of gameplay. Rather, they should be considered in how close they are to the P&P games. Do they allow some kind of limited storytelling? Do they give you character build rules similar to those in P&P games? I am still sure about this, maybe there is something that is escaping me; but I believe CRPGs might just be a game of another genre (a puzzle or an adventure game, a strategy game, or even an action game) that also works somewhat similar to a Role Playing Game. For instance, the gamplay of the first Fallout revolves around exploration, strategy (someone might say there is not much strategy involved, but I think it would still be right to say it is part of the gameplay, even if it almost becomes an aspect of the exploration as well) and character building. However, the way the game is designed, the way the different builds and ways to explore lead to very different games, the way things make sense as a story rather than just a game, make the game be an RPG, that is, the game helps you very much play as a role and make decisions based on that.
 

smaug

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Zed Duke of Banville and others have said that RPGs originated from War Games, where stats control everything and define what you are able to do and what you can’t do within a ruleset.

I’m having a hard time understanding your definition. Fallout is stat based driven which allows your character to do and interact based upon his skill set and seeing that Fallout is what every RPG should try and be, wouldn’t that make stat driven gameplay the core as C&C ties into picking your character driven skill/stats?

Also shouldn’t RPGs produce “story” situations based upon your stats to? The way I see it stats are the core of RPGS.

But, I guess RPGs could also be considered a hybrid of many things. Or, you could say they are the combination of many things, however, I see stats as controlling every aspect. For example, stats determine what you are able to do and thus changed the story, or force you to make a decision based on stats which then forces you to choose and have a consequence/choice. Then your progression, ability are all designated by stats.

Or, is that incorrect?

Alex

Unless you are saying that like Victor said that mechanical and narrative building are different, however, why should they be separate? Why shouldn’t a narrative be dictated by stats?
 
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Moonrise

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What are some of the most lauded RPGs... Planescape, Deus Ex? And what is it about these games that makes them great? Agency. That's it. One word. Historical context is unnecessary. You don't need an essay to describe it. An RPG facilitates agency. That's all it does. The tricky thing is that it's hard to do well.
 

smaug

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What are some of the most lauded RPGs... Planescape, Deus Ex? And what is it about these games that makes them great? Agency. That's it. One word. Historical context is unnecessary. You don't need an essay to describe it. An RPG facilitates agency. That's all it does. The tricky thing is that it's hard to do well.
How are you describing agency though? The ability to interact with as many things as possible? Whether that be narrative, or mechanical building?

Also shouldn’t player agency be determined by stats?
 

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