Gothic What is the most overrated cRPG on the codex?

[RNGsus]

Arcanum definitively

someone's going for the dumbfuck tag right after registering!

He's right, though.

 

[Ryan muller]

Arcanum is not hard, just a boring chore.

If i wanted an actual challenge i would play an actual good game, like Wizardry 7.

Not this linear, grindy, broken grinding BS that people pretend to be any good

Calling any game grindy while providing as an example Wiz 7 lmao. And there're so many ways to deal with those few BMC elementals other than to grind elsewhere and to go back. It's a game about roleplay possibilities, just like classic Fallouts. You didn't like the game - that's fine, not everyone got taste but that doesn't define the game in question. Arcanum is also anything but linear game.

You can, but thats literally part of why balancement is far from ok, particularly tech classes arent nearly as good to deal with such situations as magical ones and the game clearly wants you to come back later anyways.

You can do it of course, but again, most of the time it will require you to exploit those somehow.

And wiz7 have such a big encounter rate that i dont see why would you stop your progression to powerlevel for hours. You get more than enough just walking throught the game/getting lost in its dungeons.

In fact, it has such a huge encounter rate that the ammount of xp you get make solo runs incredibly doable.

As for the linearity.

Arcanum has a step by step quest model


Fallout was goal based, you could go anywhere and ask everywhere about your objectives, as long as you knew what you were looking for, there were many ways to get it.

As one example, in fallout 2 you could investigate a computer in vault 15 that would give you the right location to vault 13

As well as you could randomly get a job for trying to save a bunch of brahmin from a mysterious predator and after finding out they were deathclaws, you could use your outdoorsman skills to follow them to their nest.

It was a logical and completely non linear solution that was related to a side quest from all things.

Arcanum doesnt have this structure, which was partially what made classic fallout so good.

This was the right way to translate PnP gameplay to a videogame naturally.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Arcanum definitively

someone's going for the dumbfuck tag right after registering!

He's right, though.

Not really. People know it is a flawed game that could have been one of the greats now it is a black sheep that is still great despite it's flaws.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

I can think of many good games that I believe are quite overrated around here: Fallout 2 and New Vegas, Planescape: Torment, Morrowind (which is both extremely overrated and underrated), Gothic 1 and 2, Underrail, Betrayal at Krondor, most Might and Magic games, any Gold Box title. Now, if you ask me about actual mediocre or bad games that keep getting praise on the Codex, I would say Ultima VII (huge decline after Ultima V and VI, and it shouldn't even qualify as an RPG) and Baldur's Gate (huge dissonance between the AD&D ruleset, the plot-driven approach and the real-time isometric presentation, awful RTS combat, slow non-exploration, bad quest structure, cringey characters).

Combatfag and storyfag games are usually (not always) the most overrated ones here, and those failing to sit at the extreme ends of this false dichotomy (like Ultima, Quest for Glory, Realms of Arkania or Expeditions: Conquistador) tend to be the underrated ones. This was not always the case though, back when C&C heavy games were also in high regard anything with branching paths, ending slides or a silly pacifist route was also quite overrated.

 

[jackofshadows]

You can, but thats literally part of why balancement is far from ok, particularly tech classes arent nearly as good to deal with such situations as magical ones and the game clearly wants you to come back later anyways.

First, there's no classes. And sure, tech disciplines are unbalanced as fuck same as magic schools but that's a part of the game's charm - you have to figure that out and build your character accordingly. It's not a hard game, as you said yourself ergo you don't actually have to min-max your char and don't touch thouse on a weak side at all - you can learn much, just not at once, in one playthrough (same as in Fallouts). Fallouts has some difficulty spikes too by the way, even Harry qualifies as such.

And wiz7 have such a big encounter rate that i dont see why would you stop your progression to powerlevel for hours. You get more than enough just walking throught the game/getting lost in its dungeons.

In fact, it has such a huge encounter rate that the ammount of xp you get make solo runs incredibly doable.

I don't get it. You call Arcanum grindy and then praise Wiz 7 encounter rate = grindness? So are you complain about nessesity of doing quests in Arcanum? You can grind world map there if you like it so much, lol.

As for the linearity.

Arcanum has a step by step quest model


Fallout was goal based, you could go anywhere and ask everywhere about your objectives, as long as you knew what you were looking for, there were many ways to get it.

Arcanum has it too, the goals are just much smaller though so to say. But you still have to figure out a lot by yourself most of the time. And it has stuff like "how do I get to Thanatos" and most importantly, the game has small branching, which Fallouts didn't have. As for linearity in general - outside of the main quest the game is fucking open and has the same feeling as Fallouts. And also you can cut corners sometimes, including finding the pass to Caladon for example earlier than MQ requires that.

This was the right way to translate PnP gameplay to a videogame naturally.

Arcanum provides it too, your experience was just fucked, somehow. Try playing a different character.

 

[Berengar]

This is like being able to read the entire General board in one thread! Radical!

 

[OSK]

This is like being able to read the entire General board in one thread! Radical!

Don't give the mods any ideas.

 

[Ryan muller]

First, there's no classes. And sure, tech disciplines are unbalanced as fuck same as magic schools but that's a part of the game's charm - you have to figure that out and build your character accordingly. It's not a hard game, as you said yourself ergo you don't actually have to min-max your char and don't touch thouse on a weak side at all - you can learn much, just not at once, in one playthrough (same as in Fallouts). Fallouts has some difficulty spikes too by the way, even Harry qualifies as such.

You can literally steal their guns, get sneaky and fix the water pump, convince harry you are a ghoul or accept getting arrest which actually make the invasion at mariposa EASIER than going all by yourself.

The harshest spike in fallout 1 is the mother deathclaw thing at boneyard, which is a sidequest.

And how being unbalanced and broken is part of arcanum's charm? Lol i cant understand fans of this game.

I don't get it. You call Arcanum grindy and then praise Wiz 7 encounter rate = grindness? So are you complain about nessesity of doing quests in Arcanum? You can grind world map there if you like it so much, lol.

High encounter rate isnt grinding, you can argue about it being annoying, but you arent stoping your progression in order to powerlevel just so you can progress throught an artificial obstacle.

In arcanum you literally has to go out of your way in order to get levels just so you can keep progressing in the story, and going back and fourth throught the wilderness killing wolves and running away from bad encounters so you can get almost nothing worth of XP is not viable.

Im complaining exactly because you dont need to do it in Wiz 7, as long as you know what you are doing you can pretty easily solo run the entire game.

Arcanum has it too, the goals are just much smaller though so to say. But you still have to figure out a lot by yourself most of the time. And it has stuff like "how do I get to Thanatos" and most importantly, the game has small branching, which Fallouts didn't have. As for linearity in general - outside of the main quest the game is fucking open and has the same feeling as Fallouts. And also you can cut corners sometimes, including finding the pass to Caladon for example earlier than MQ requires that.

This is a step by step branch based rpg.

You literally have to do most things in the same order to get to progress in the story, if i could choose do you think i would do BMC for example? In fallout you could Just go to the cathedral from the start, hence why its speedruns are so fast, the game dont play out like arcanum at all.

If fallout was like arcanum you would need to go to shady sands> Vault 15> the hub> Boneyard and then get branching paths to go use the brotherhood's help and progress by that point or use the Followers to get infiltrate at the cathedral.

In fallout you dont need to do any of those, hell in my first playtrought i havent talk with the Followers nor i found the brotherhood.

Arcanum provides it too, your experience was just fucked, somehow. Try playing a different character.

I have beaten it 2 times already, its not my character as the necromancer build i made was OP asf and i still thought it wasnt nearly as open ended as fallout.

Its just not the same[/QUOTE]

 

[Sunri]

Arcanum isn't overrated, it still holds up and is super fun and engaging. I'just started it not long ago for the first time, and I'm having a blast exploring continent sure there are retarded things like why I can't sail to the isle of despair more than once and other weird decisions, but overall experience is great maybe because I'm playing a mage, so combat is not issue for me when I went to black rock mountain I was around level 18 and didn't have any trouble clearing it out with Magnus, Virgin and orc guy on the other hand people praise Ultima games here I tried them too and didn't see the appeal, so maybe they are overrated

 

[RIT_SKUA]

IDK how anyone can say Arcanum is bad. Flawed, sure, but in spite of all that it's still a really, really good game, easily top 10 cRPGs of all time.
I'm personally not really a fan of games where you have to create an entire party of adventurers at the start instead of recruiting unique companions as you go. I would argue that having well written NPCs (and companions in particular, since you spend the most time with them) is one of the most important parts of creating an engaging setting, because they contextualize, highlight, and reify particular aspects of the world through the lens of people who are "actually living in it", thus giving the setting depth and importance (through greater context).

 

[Ryan muller]

I can think of many good games that I believe are quite overrated around here: Fallout 2 and New Vegas, Planescape: Torment, Morrowind (which is both extremely overrated and underrated), Gothic 1 and 2, Underrail, Betrayal at Krondor, most Might and Magic games, any Gold Box title. Now, if you ask me about actual mediocre or bad games that keep getting praise on the Codex, I would say Ultima VII (huge decline after Ultima V and VI, and it shouldn't even qualify as an RPG) and Baldur's Gate (huge dissonance between the AD&D ruleset, the plot-driven approach and the real-time isometric presentation, awful RTS combat, slow non-exploration, bad quest structure, cringey characters).

Combatfag and storyfag games are usually (not always) the most overrated ones here, and those failing to sit at the extreme ends of this false dichotomy (like Ultima, Quest for Glory, Realms of Arkania or Expeditions: Conquistador) tend to be the underrated ones. This was not always the case though, back when C&C heavy games were also in high regard anything with branching paths, ending slides or a silly pacifist route was also quite overrated.

At this point i only played ultima 7 and underworld (which became very quickly one of my favorite rpgs)

I really liked u7, what makes u6 so much better? (Thinking about delving into it next)

 

[jackofshadows]

You can literally steal their guns, get sneaky and fix the water pump, convince harry you are a ghoul or accept getting arrest which actually make the invasion at mariposa EASIER than going all by yourself.

The harshest spike in fallout 1 is the mother deathclaw thing at boneyard, which is a sidequest.

And how being unbalanced and broken is part of arcanum's charm? Lol i cant understand fans of this game.

I see that you're just trolling now then. Or you don't realise that you can "get sneaky" in Arcanum and just, you know, WALK BY those elems and everything else in BMC?

m complaining exactly because you dont need to do it in Wiz 7, as long as you know what you are doing you can pretty easily solo run the entire game.

Absolutely the same in Arcanum. Git Gud and stop spreading fake news.

In fallout you could Just go to the cathedral from the start

Yes. Or to Mariposa. And get your ass kicked just like in BMC, right?

 

[Ryan muller]

You can literally steal their guns, get sneaky and fix the water pump, convince harry you are a ghoul or accept getting arrest which actually make the invasion at mariposa EASIER than going all by yourself.

The harshest spike in fallout 1 is the mother deathclaw thing at boneyard, which is a sidequest.

And how being unbalanced and broken is part of arcanum's charm? Lol i cant understand fans of this game.

I see that you're just trolling now then. Or you don't realise that you can "get sneaky" in Arcanum and just, you know, WALK BY those elems and everything else in BMC?

m complaining exactly because you dont need to do it in Wiz 7, as long as you know what you are doing you can pretty easily solo run the entire game.

Absolutely the same in Arcanum. Git Gud and stop spreading fake news.

In fallout you could Just go to the cathedral from the start

Yes. Or to Mariposa. And get your ass kicked just like in BMC, right?

I love how you ignore pretty much all of the other options, including convicing harry which is stupidly easy to do, or how much fucking easier fighting those are compared to BMC even without grinding at all just to try saying its the same thing. Hilarious i would say.

Btw, again, mariposa is easier to do when you let yourself get arrest compared to when you dont, which means that even if you are bad at the combat and dont know how to do it correctly you can pretty much complete it in less than 6 minutes.

Pretty much the same stuff huh?

Love the game if you want but nah, not the same stuff, not by a large margin

Fallout never pushes you in the direction of grinding regardless of your level.

And its one of the many reasons the first game is still an example of how you should pace a roleplaying game

 

[Humbaba]

Arcanum

 

[Serus]

Planescape, is it even a contest?

 

[Valdetiosi]

Being here I always see on top being Arcanum, Fallout 2, Morrowind and Gothic 1 or 2. And I would say out of those only Arcanum isn't overrated imo. Fallout 2 is due to having more content (but I don't think that equals content being good), Morrowind for immersion and world building (Wiki NPCs writing could be better to make them more liveable) and Gothic 1 and 2 for combat (It's controls are finicky to get used to.)

But I also love those games so I don't think much about it. I can't afford to be negative on things, be they good or bad games, unless they are boring. Which most Bethesda games unfortunately are.

 

[Atlet]

Every action oriented RPG and gaymes with poor combat mechanics

 

[jackofshadows]

Fallout never pushes you in the direction of grinding regardless of your level.

Neither Arcanum. You keep saying that while in fact you went to BMC unprepared, that's all. Both times, apparantely. Imagine showing up to Harry without the right skills and gear early on being like 3-4 level. Essentially the same situation.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

At this point i only played ultima 7 and underworld (which became very quickly one of my favorite rpgs)

I really liked u7, what makes u6 so much better? (Thinking about delving into it next)

Bear in mind that Ultima VI was a transitional game, so it can be argued that most of the flaws (or virtues) that I associate with Ultima VII were already present in there. I believe it gets a pass though for being a very exciting step forward in game design at the time, unlike Ultima VII which just polished that formula in the lamest way possible, while ignoring what made Ultima IV and V (arguably the peak of the series if we ignore the Underworld spinoff) so great.


First of all, Ultima VII is a detective game where combat and dungeon exploration are merely an afterthought, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that, althought the game is mostly about talking with NPCs, traveling from town to town, and moving objects around to find clues and solve puzzles, these core activities got overly streamlined and dumbed-down.

For example, the dialogue system got streamlined in favor of a mouse-only interface, so you no longer can type keywords to prompt NPC reactions. This is a baffling decision for a mystery-themed game as it cripples the whole clue-gathering aspect so important to the Ultima series. Because of this, clever players can no longer sequence-break the now rigid plot, there can no longer be implicit or environmental clues, and oblivious players will be able to unlock all dialogue options without much thought (I remember solving a crime in Empath Abbey just by clicking all dialogue options available, it was so lame). Karma meters are also gone, so you no longer can say things that could hinder your progress later on, and of course, character stats and spells will never affect these activities.

Earlier Ultima games had an abstract presentation, while Ultima VII tried a more realistic and "cinematic" (and vomit-inducing) top-down perspective. This seemingliy minor detail had huge consequences in game design, like the removal of many interesting systems, a dumbed-down combat system where you can only control the main character in real time (yes, I know that most Ultima games have mediocre combat, but before Ultima VII this wasn't set in stone yet: Ultima VI had a serviceable turn-based system, while combat in Ultima V was actually top-notch), and many other decisions like having to manually fed party members like fucking babies every couple of minutes. There's for example no more blink spells to avoid enemies and reach hidden spots; horses are now useless and only there to please LARPers; there's naval exploration, but winds no longer affect navigation, there's no more ship to ship combat nor boarding stages, and ships are now indestructible; there are moongates but they're no longer puzzles to be solved; and the magic carpet quickly renders all other transportation means obsolete anyways.

Character customization became meaningless, with no character creation nor classes, worthless stats, and little to no moral choices. Quests got also more linear, and the loss of interesting systems like teleportation spells or being able to blowup doors made them more generic (Ultima was no Quest for Glory in that regard, but before VII quests with multiple solutions were not rare), and for a game with so much emphasis on moving objects around and some rudimentary physics, it's hard to believe that character attributes and spells barely affected them. It would have been nice some strength checks when pushing objects around, dexterity or intelligence checks when playing instruments, and so on, but unfortunately by this time Garriott had become a full-fledged LARPer.

The plot in Ultima VII was actually good, but it's also a more generic good vs evil tale compared to Ultima IV or VI. The setting itself on the other hand is one that feels dumber the more detailed it gets, and Ultima VII has by far the most detailed Britannia in the series. There's also lots of seemingly interesting bits of lore that seasoned players would recognize as the plots of the previous Ultima games being retconned.

Because of all this, newcomers tend to enjoy Ultima VII way more than many Ultima fans. This explains why the game got slammed by critics and had poor sales back in 1992, while today it's considered a huge classic.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Because of all this, newcomers tend to enjoy Ultima VII way more than many Ultima fans. This explains why the game got slammed by critics and had poor sales back in 1992, while today it's considered a huge classic.

Poor sales for Ultima VII might also be related to its intensive system requirements, as it was more demanding on CPUs than even Ultima Underworld, which unlike Ultima VII was a groundbreaking technical advancement for 1992.

 

[Ryan muller]

At this point i only played ultima 7 and underworld (which became very quickly one of my favorite rpgs)

I really liked u7, what makes u6 so much better? (Thinking about delving into it next)

Bear in mind that Ultima VI was a transitional game, so it can be argued that most of the flaws (or virtues) that I associate with Ultima VII were already present in there. I believe it gets a pass though for being a very exciting step forward in game design at the time, unlike Ultima VII which just polished that formula in the lamest way possible, while ignoring what made Ultima IV and V (arguably the peak of the series if we ignore the Underworld spinoff) so great.


First of all, Ultima VII is a detective game where combat and dungeon exploration are merely an afterthought, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that, althought the game is mostly about talking with NPCs, traveling from town to town, and moving objects around to find clues and solve puzzles, these core activities got overly streamlined and dumbed-down.

For example, the dialogue system got streamlined in favor of a mouse-only interface, so you no longer can type keywords to prompt NPC reactions. This is a baffling decision for a mystery-themed game as it cripples the whole clue-gathering aspect so important to the Ultima series. Because of this, clever players can no longer sequence-break the now rigid plot, there can no longer be implicit or environmental clues, and oblivious players will be able to unlock all dialogue options without much thought (I remember solving a crime in Empath Abbey just by clicking all dialogue options available, it was so lame). Karma meters are also gone, so you no longer can say things that could hinder your progress later on, and of course, character stats and spells will never affect these activities.

Earlier Ultima games had an abstract presentation, while Ultima VII tried a more realistic and "cinematic" (and vomit-inducing) top-down perspective. This seemingliy minor detail had huge consequences in game design, like the removal of many interesting systems, the dumbed-down combat system where you can only control the main character in real time (yes, I know that most Ultima games have mediocre combat, but before Ultima VII this wasn't set in stone yet: Ultima VI had a serviceable turn-based system, while combat in Ultima V was actually top-notch), and many other decisions like having to manually fed party members like fucking babies every couple of minutes. There's for example no more blink spells to avoid enemies and reach hidden spots; horses are now useless and only there to please LARPers; there's naval exploration, but winds no longer affect navigation, there's no more ship to ship combat nor boarding stages, and ships are now indestructible; there are moongates but they're no longer puzzles to be solved; and the magic carpet quickly renders all other transportation means obsolete anyways.

Character customization became meaningless, with no character creation nor classes, worthless stats, and little to no moral choices. Quests got also more linear, and the loss of interesting systems like teleportation spells or being able to blowing up doors made them more generic (Ultima was never Quest for Glory in that regard, but before Ultima VII quests with multiple solutions were not rare), and for a game with so much emphasis on moving objects around and some rudimentary physics, it's hard to believe that character attributes and spells barely affected them. It would have been nice some strength checks when pushing objects around, dexterity or intelligence checks when playing instruments, and so on, but unfortunately by this time Garriott had become a full-fledged LARPer.

The plot in Ultima VII was actually good, but it's also a more generic good vs evil tale compared to Ultima IV or VI. The setting itself on the other had is one of those that feels dumber the more detailed it is, and Ultima VII has by far the most detailed Britannia in the series. There's also lots of seemingly interesting lore that seasoned players would recognize as the plots of the previous Ultima games being retconned.

Because of all this, newcomers tend to enjoy Ultima VII way more than many Ultima fans. This explains why the game got slammed by critics and had poor sales back in 1992, while today it's considered a huge classic.

Wait, there were ship to ship combat and wind affected navigation?

Thats fucking rad

 

[eli]

rule number one in the codex; whatever they hate is good, whatever they like is ok and whatever they don't give a shit about is shit.

 

[Sunri]

rule number one in the codex; whatever they hate is good, whatever they like is ok and whatever they don't give a shit about is shit.

That's an interesting opinion, I guess if they didn't care about the game they wouldn't bitch so much about it and if they care there must be something in it Hamm mmm

 

[Nikanuur]

I've played Underrrail for at least 20 hours and it seemed to me like a good, atmospheric indie RPG with some good ideas. But it fell short (to my liking) due to the over-complex builds and crafting and itemisation, whereas the combat and the interactions were kinda simplistic. The mechanics of the game felt like they were trying to - bear with the allegory please - bud a wholesome well-being'n'fitness program on a person that only recently started an ocasional running in the park.

And the cult here... trying to make the game seem like one of the best RPGs ever. I just don't get it. What am I missing?

 

[Nifft Batuff]

And the cult here... trying to make the game seem like one of the best RPGs ever. I just don't get it. What am I missing?

One of the thing that I loved in Underrail was the free-form exploration.