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Gothic What is the most overrated cRPG on the codex?

Joined
Jan 14, 2018
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Codex Year of the Donut
action-combat, FPP,
It and about half of all games ever released.
and atmospheric level design?
Subjective interpretation.

"Immersive sim" is a non-genre, stop trying to make it happen.
I’m not trying to make it happen, but Deus Ex, System Shock, and UU all happen to be very similar games. If you like one of them, chances are pretty good you’ll like the other ones. I just think those were a poor example of “these games have nothing in common”.
Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale happen to be similar games, that doesn't mean they're a distinct genre.

It means people from the same developer made them using the same damn engine.
 

dacencora

Guest
action-combat, FPP,
It and about half of all games ever released.
and atmospheric level design?
Subjective interpretation.

"Immersive sim" is a non-genre, stop trying to make it happen.
I’m not trying to make it happen, but Deus Ex, System Shock, and UU all happen to be very similar games. If you like one of them, chances are pretty good you’ll like the other ones. I just think those were a poor example of “these games have nothing in common”.
Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale happen to be similar games, that doesn't mean they're a distinct genre.

It means people from the same developer made them using the same damn engine.
I don’t disagree with you, I just thought it was silly that someone would say that UU, SS, and Deus Ex had no similarities to one another.
 

El Presidente

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I don't think there's a single subgenre that's worse than diablo-clones in any genre, tbh.
It's actually impressive if you think about it, how an entire subgenre that consists of quite a few dozens of games have managed to not have, for example, 1 (one) single good quest.

You know what's even funnier, Mario Golf on the GBA has better story bits, gameplay variety, different "encounter designs" and meaningful stats distribution than the entire Diablo-clone subgenre. So you can unironically say the Golf genre of video games have a better example of an RPG than Diablo-clones. :lol:

 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,452
action-combat, FPP,
It and about half of all games ever released.
and atmospheric level design?
Subjective interpretation.

"Immersive sim" is a non-genre, stop trying to make it happen.
I’m not trying to make it happen, but Deus Ex, System Shock, and UU all happen to be very similar games. If you like one of them, chances are pretty good you’ll like the other ones. I just think those were a poor example of “these games have nothing in common”.

The better term is probably "Looking Glass Games game". Aside from awkward pronunciation. Every game from them fits into that niche, and every attempt from other studios to intentionally make an "immersive sim" is lesser, while the LGG guys weren't even intentionally trying to make an immersive sim, just a good game that was good because it was immersive.

Original Deus Ex seems to be the one noble exception to that rule.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm not sure how Fallout 2 can be overrated here given all I fucking hear here is people bitching about it. People bitch about Fallout 2 here like Fallout 2 is Fallout 3.

People bitch about everything here - hell, one of the most common bitching targets is also rated the #1 RPG in the site's lists for years.

Shit, just being able to move your party members out of the doorway of the room they've trapped you in, and being able to have them hold your stuff without needing to buy it back from them makes Fallout 2 a more enjoyable game to play than the first.

At least until you have more than one follower and they decide to block a narrow exit standing one in front of another while there is a wall that blocks the farthest one so you can't click on them to have them move, so you can click on the next one to move them, etc. This happened more times in Fallout 2 to me than getting blocked in Fallout 1 :-/

And yes, exchanging stuff is an improvement in the second game (it better be since AFAIK followers in the first game weren't even properly supported by the engine but were hacked in) but it is still a major PITA - e.g. i *do* have all the objects necessary to exchange with a shop keeper to buy that combat armor *but* some of them are in my followers' inventories and they refuse to give me stuff i cannot carry (since there isn't an "encumbered" state like in New Vegas that allows limited movement even if you have a crapton of stuff - well, there is actually one but happens only if a script decides you need to take some object and the game couldn't be bothered with handling that case) so i have to exchange all i can to buy some useless but expensive garbage from the seller - assuming they have anything, otherwise i'd need to hunt down other shops - in order to have less items in my own inventory and can accept some of the items from my followers and then to exchange them again with another expensive thing so that i can exchange these expensive items back to the shop keeper (at a reduced price!) together with other items i can now carry so that i can finally get the combat armor. Which is aggravating as you have to move back and forth and lose money (due to having to buy and sell otherwise unnecessary items) because of some arbitrary and honestly senseless limitation - if the game had a New Vegas style encumbered state or at least the ability to cycle between follower inventories in the shop and treat them as a single "party inventory" (which makes absolute sense in that case as it isn't weird to exchange a single item with multiple items provided by more than one person) it wouldn't be a problem.
 

Harthwain

Magister
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For me the most overrated cRPG would be Bloodlines. It's not a bad game (especially considering the state I played it in), but I would never call a masterpiece as I have seen some people do. I am not sure why I never "clicked" for me, because I was enjoying Redemption. But Redemption had the theme I found more endearing when going with the story (the impossible love, the loss of soul in context of faith, the immortality itself being a curse rather than a blessing, the literal crusader becoming a vampire, etc.) and the voice acting was superb. Enough to carry me through the whole game, despite its clunky combat system. Bloodlines has its moments, but they are only moments. I think the biggest reason that pulled me out was me seeing and realizing how the game worked under the hood (and how shallow the systems really were) very close to the beginning of the game, which broke the whole immersion thing and there was no going back into it after that.

TTRPGs were born when people began giving stories to figurines in miniature wargaming. CnC is built upon that mechanical foundation, it's not the foundation itself.

Sure but still you're implying that Disco is not even close to those elements, which is not true. I can accept that you don't like it but to push it into a different category while it does carry traditional RPG elements it's unfair. In other words, you don't have to treat it like Monkey Island with attribute checks. There are different angles to look at it as well. It is different (and fresh if you want my opinion) and that's it. I don't see the need to push it away, at all.
Indeed. I keep saying that Disco takes a lot of inspiration from tabletop RPGs and it is reflected in the game, but for some people if you can't be a murderhobo then it doesn't matter.

PST is combat heavy you retards, its trashmob galore

the combat is shit, but there is a lot of it. literally trash mob after trash mob

Only retards who never played it compare it to Disco
...unless it's not compared to Disco because of combat. It had huge amount of text. It went so far as to describe characters' actions to the player, not just their words.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre.

Something something Doom-clone and FPS something something.
 

curds

Magister
Joined
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Messages
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"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre. Additionally, "ARPG" is a terrible term because it explicitly excludes the massive majority of action RPGs.
I agree. Action RPG = any RPG played in real time where you control each swing (ie. not something like Baldur's Gate, even though that game is real-time). For example, Diablo, Gothic, Morrowind, Dark Souls.

Isometric action RPG with "clicker" combat, hordes of enemies, randomised loot and levels, etc. = diablo clone.

I also dislike the immersive sim term. They're just action RPGs or action-adventures.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut
"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre.

Something something Doom-clone and FPS something something.
FPS games sufficiently sufficiently differed from Doom in a very short timespan. Quake is not much like Doom, very different playstyles.
 

Black_Willow

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"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre.

Something something Doom-clone and FPS something something.
FPS games sufficiently sufficiently differed from Doom in a very short timespan. Quake is not much like Doom, very different playstyles.
Oh yes, game where you run around the level and shoot monsters with shotgun is TOTALLY UNLIKE a game where you run around a level and shoot monsters with a shootgun.:lol:
There were more gameplay differences between Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 then between Doom and Quake.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre.

Something something Doom-clone and FPS something something.
FPS games sufficiently sufficiently differed from Doom in a very short timespan. Quake is not much like Doom, very different playstyles.
Oh yes, game where you run around the level and shoot monsters with shotgun is TOTALLY UNLIKE a game where you run around a level and shoot monsters with a shootgun.:lol:
There were more gameplay differences between Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 then between Doom and Quake.
I see you've never played quake
 

Black_Willow

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,866,237
Location
Borderline
"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre.

Something something Doom-clone and FPS something something.
FPS games sufficiently sufficiently differed from Doom in a very short timespan. Quake is not much like Doom, very different playstyles.
Oh yes, game where you run around the level and shoot monsters with shotgun is TOTALLY UNLIKE a game where you run around a level and shoot monsters with a shootgun.:lol:
There were more gameplay differences between Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 then between Doom and Quake.
I see you've never played quake
If that's what you see, then I advise visiting an ophthalmologist.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
I won't criticize Diablo itself, because I'm ignorant of it, but let's talk about Diablo-clones.

Diablo clones are extremely similar to a certain kind of traditional RPG: bad single character roguelike type RPGs, where you control one character, grind stats and meaningless gear upgrades, explore random dungeons and fight monsters by bumping into them. (This kind of game can be done well occasionally, but there are hundreds of forgotten and terrible variations of this formula.)

That's a degenerate form of RPG, but it's still a very recognizable form of the genre, that may actually be more fundamental to the genre than the actual good games that came later. Diablo clones are basically the same thing, plus dumb clicky combat.

Similarly, for a while "action RPGs" used to just be JRPGs with awful action combat replacing the awful turn based combat. Usually bad games, but almost the exact same thing as their turn based counterparts, just with more pointless button mashing.

Classifying these games as RPGs wasn't much of a stretch.

On the other hand, we have games like Deus Ex or Dark Souls, which may actually be good, but that feature gameplay which is fundamentally identical to a stealth shooter or a third person action game, just with the addition of more stats, more dialog and more story.

If Deus Ex and Dark Souls are RPGs, then so are those sports games, where you create a character, grind his stats, and play through a story mode.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,662
"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.
Not a single one differentiates itself enough from Diablo to be worthy of being called its own subgenre.

Something something Doom-clone and FPS something something.
FPS games sufficiently sufficiently differed from Doom in a very short timespan. Quake is not much like Doom, very different playstyles.

It's more about the fact that Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and Quake popularized a certain style of gameplay (first-person camera, shooting stuff up with no real side content) that earned them the FPS moniker.
I understand that "Doom-clone" makes much more sense to refer to games similar to Doom, but all FPS were first called "Doom clones" until now "FPS" is used to refer to all of them.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Frostfell
BG2 has better quests and atmosphere

Yeah... Hanging out with liches at their natural habitat, the inn, was a great atmospheric touch. I cherish those moments.

Everyone agrees that hoboliches in BG2 are retarded. They could just have called it skeleton mage.

"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.

ARPG should IMO refer to Gothic, Dark Souls. FNV and so on. Not to Diablo 3 and similar games.
 
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gaussgunner

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"ARPG" is a terrible term, the correct term is diablo-clone.

ARPG should IMO refer to Gothic, Dark Souls. FNV and so on. Not to Diablo 3 and similar games.

FPRPGs, realtime roguelikes, and some other realtime isometric games with more RPG elements. I'm okay with calling them all ARPGs to distinguish them from full-fledged turn-based party-based RPGs. Developers and reviewers say "action RPG" when they're trying to make a semi-RPG sound more sophisticated. it's basically just a "nice" way of saying caveat emptor.
 

gaussgunner

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realtime roguelikes
It's oxymoron. :M

Anything can be a roguelike if you stretch it far enough, even FTL and shit. It's even more abused than """"RPG""". At least Diablo was directly inspired by the original roguelikes. There's a design document out there. It says they literally just wanted to make a game like Angband/Moria with graphics, realtime, and eliminating some autistic shit like permadeath (at least by default) to sell more copies to normies.
 

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