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Incline What would have to happen for a 2nd cRPG Renaissance?

Lord_Potato

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IIRC Heinlein and Jack Vance had done military service.

Most American SF writers of their generation did military service, and even saw action.
It's a miracle none of the major writers were killed in action, but some were badly damaged like Kornbluth and Walter M. Miller.

Why a miracle? Simple statistics.

For example during WW2 more than 15 million Americans served in the military. 400 thousand died. That's 2,6%. And future writers are usually quite well educated which means that even in the army they often find more secure employment away from the frontlines.
 

Lord_Potato

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Such fragile psyche is not a feature or a good soldier.
It probably wasn't just that, considering he was around through most of the great Depression?
I suppose it was only natural he got depressed himself.

There was much debate about Howard's mental state. Some say he suffered from a depressive disorder, but there are also claims about Oedipal complex. Suicide could also simply be a reaction to stress. We'll never know for sure, it seems he was not treated during his life.
 

Ravielsk

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Discerning members of the codex, what would have to occur for you to consider a 2nd cRPG Renaissance at hand?

Nothing. cRPGs were and always will be a product of their time that was more a product of technological limitations and designers stumbling rather than a conscious decision making. There is a reason why most modern cRPGs are largely considered to be bad and its not because they botched the formula, the formula was always bad its just that in the 90s it was the only thing possible on consumer hardware.

The only way to get a new renaissance is to give up on the old cRPG formula and actually come up with a new one that is no grounded in the limitations of windows 95.
 

Lord_Potato

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New renaissance started with Deus Ex: Human Revolution (rebirth of immersive sim rpg) and fully blossomed with Disco Elysium.

Notable moments happened in 2015 and 2018, with the release of Underrail & Atom, rejuvenating the Falloutish sub-genre, release of Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder doing the same for Infinity-engine-style games and release of Kingdom Come: Deliverance delivering TES style game, but good.

Disco Elysium ofcourse became the proud successor of Planescape: Torment.
 

V_K

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One thing to consider is that for old-school gamers of the 90s it wasn't Renaissance but steep decline dominated by Diablo-clones and popamole shooter wannabes. So if another Renaissance happened, the Codex would likely be the last place to acknowledge it. It might very well be that old-school gamers of late 2020s will lament the golden age of such classic RPGs as Skyrim, Witcher 3 and Breath of the Wild.
The indie and AA boom of around 2013 was more of a reinassance than what 1997 ever was, and the Codex hasn't recognized it yet.
Began in 2012 with Legend of Grimrock, an homage to Dungeon Master, showing that the way forward, out of the CRPG Wasteland era of 2004-2011, was to look backward to the Age of Incline and the Golden Age of CRPGs, rather than to the so-called "CRPG Renaissance" era. :incline:
My point was, what the Codex calls "the Renaissance" of the late 90s were not games that resurrected old gameplay models but did their own thing, powered by the newly available tech. At the same time, the Codex clearly expects "the 2nd Renaissance" to resurrect gameplay models of that time.
So in the first sence, we are having a Renaissance: there's a new and hugely trendy sub-genre (Souls-likes), we are seeing an explosion of a previously niche sub-genre (TES-likes - comparable to M&M6-9), and there's a blooming indie scene that's mimicking older games (in the late 90s that niche was filled by the likes of Exile and Yendorian Tales). Codex just doesn't like how this Renaissance looks.
 
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Discerning members of the codex, what would have to occur for you to consider a 2nd cRPG Renaissance at hand?
Thank you Tyranicon anon! Good strong wifes game developer friend anon! All CRPG game do need more cute wifes anon! All CRPG game do need cute heterosexual human male wife scholar main character OPTION anon with cute wifes romance anon BUT NO CUCKOLD NONSENSE anon! It is true anon! It is! It is 2nd CRPG Wifes Renaissance anon! It is! Thank you anon! You are a good strong friend anon!
FhSxtwE.jpg
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
For discussion purposes, the first cRPG Renaissance is largely considered to be between the mid 90s to the early 2000s. Games would include seminal works such as Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc.

While cRPGs are still most certainly a niche genre, over the last few years we've seen a strong resurgence in commercially and critically successful cRPGs, most notably led by Owlcat and Larian (although codex opinion remains... divided over game quality). There are also a large number of indies either released recently, in early access or in development that hold promise.

Discerning members of the codex, what would have to occur for you to consider a 2nd cRPG Renaissance at hand?

613sa2.jpg
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Better writing. Other aspects such as improved cinematography,, AI-assisted programming, AR/VR, improved hardware, and so on are all definitely good and important, but the core issue is that (perhaps because video games are a much younger medium?), compared to those of the written word, TV, and film, both our general standards of what is considered to be good writing, as well as the overall capacity of our average writers to construct strong, original works is clearly much lower than it could and should be.

It's not merely about the quality of the writing and plots, it's about the way writing is approached by game writers.
They have to learn how to write for a game, not a novel or a movie.

In the AAA space, games are written like movies. Stuff like God of War and Uncharted even plays like a movie: painfully linear and the path forward is so obviously signposted a blind man could see it. Everything is highly scripted, overly dramatic set pieces. The story is told in non-interactive cutscenes.
Ubisoft open world games are, despite having open world gameplay, similar in their delivery of storytelling. In the Far Crys, you explore a large area and liberate it from bad guys by taking over their outposts. There's even some light RPG elements with gaining XP and unlocking perks. But the story missions are all fully linear and the story is told in cutscenes. Cue narrative dissonance where your character acts like a whiny teenager in the cutscenes while you mow down hordes of enemies without breaking a sweat during gameplay. Assassins' Creed is similar: you may get to explore a big city on your own, but the story is told in linear cutscenes with zero player input - like a movie. (I haven't played Odyssey and Valhalla yet, but apparently they do have dialogue choices or something... even then, they're still very cinematic in presentation)

In the mid-budget RPG space, on the other hand, writers seem to think they're writing a novel rather than a game. And not a particularly good one at that. Paragraphs upon paragraphs of exposition dumped upon you before you even begin the game properly. Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera are the worst offenders. SO. MUCH. TEXT. And most of it isn't even relevant to what happens in the game at all. I don't even hate long text by itself, Morrowind is one of my favorite games ever and it dumps a lot of lore on you too... but that lore usually refers to things you actually find in the game, while Pillars and Numanuma waste hundreds of thousands of words telling you what other parts of the world look like, which you will never ever get to see. Words words words words but none of these words have any relation to what your character is doing in the game.

The quality of the writing could be top notch, but if they keep writing linear cinematic cutscene or endless loredumps with little relation to your actual actions, it's not gonna be a good fit for a game.

You know which RPG had really good writing? Arcanum. It was usually short and succinct, giving you enough information to know what's going on without bogging you down with extraneous shit. And the quest design was awesome: the quest designers/writers (if you write for a game, you should also be a quest designer, not just a monkey hitting the typewriter) made sure to give you different choices and outcomes and make them have an actual impact on the game.
Angery halfling wizard hates tech and wants you to wreck the local steam engine. It is guarded by a simple-minded dwarf who loves engines. He will attack you if you destroy it. But if you keep him alive instead of killing him, the constable will know that YOU destroyed the engine and never talk to you again. If you kill the dwarf, the constable won't know who did it and task you with finding a gear to fix it. If you fix it, the halfling wizard will feel betrayed and won't talk to you anymore. It's a simple setup, but it offers a lot of choice & consequence and can cut off a questgiver and/or a merchant permanently depending on how you do it.

This is what RPG writers need to do. Don't write something super deep and fancy that can rival the best novels and movies. Write something simple that is made for a game. A simple situation with multiple ways of solving it, plenty of player choice, and different consequences depending on how the player approaches it.

Once they manage to do that competently enough, they can think about adding deeper themes and shit like that. But first, they must understand how to write for a game.
 

Baron Dupek

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Wasn't there already 2nd renaissance, with Kickstarter to fund/promote? Then smaller one with Early Access hellhole that released one decent and trapped dozens?
 

BruceVC

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Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft would probably die if you sneezed at them too hard. Neither one was a decent soldier material.
Bro you haven't seen an image of Howard have you?
Dude was an amateur boxer and weightlifter. May or may not have been soldier material but he was definitely sneezeproof.

Howard had a fragile health in his youth, and later, despite his trainings had a weak heart, which he treated by taking regular doses of Digoxin, a drug that also causes numerous side effects, including poor kidney function.

Besides his mental health was an untreated mess. After all, he killed himself because of terminal illness of his mother. Such fragile psyche is not a feature or a good soldier.

How tragic, I never knew Howard killed himself. I love the whole Conan universe and still collect Conan comics and Savage Sword of Conan
 

Tyranicon

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This is what RPG writers need to do. Don't write something super deep and fancy that can rival the best novels and movies. Write something simple that is made for a game. A simple situation with multiple ways of solving it, plenty of player choice, and different consequences depending on how the player approaches it.

Once they manage to do that competently enough, they can think about adding deeper themes and shit like that. But first, they must understand how to write for a game.

I don't think it's a fault to be ambitious. The problem is when you don't have the talent to back up that ambition. I don't believe most RPG writers have the training, experience, or talent to attempt anything close to the best movies and novels.

Especially not with modern RPGs where plots and characters are often just soapboxing.


Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft would probably die if you sneezed at them too hard. Neither one was a decent soldier material.
Bro you haven't seen an image of Howard have you?
Dude was an amateur boxer and weightlifter. May or may not have been soldier material but he was definitely sneezeproof.

Howard had a fragile health in his youth, and later, despite his trainings had a weak heart, which he treated by taking regular doses of Digoxin, a drug that also causes numerous side effects, including poor kidney function.

Besides his mental health was an untreated mess. After all, he killed himself because of terminal illness of his mother. Such fragile psyche is not a feature or a good soldier.

Whenever I think of Howard I always go back to this picture.

61Waq6QpXqL.jpg
 

Fedora Master

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First of all you'd need to cut off the hands of every game developer currently alive...and then - wait, what were we talking about?
 
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I don't think it's a fault to be ambitious. The problem is when you don't have the talent to back up that ambition. I don't believe most RPG writers have the training, experience, or talent to attempt anything close to the best movies and novels.

Especially not with modern RPGs where plots and characters are often just soapboxing.
Thank you Tyranicon anon! Good strong wifes game developer friend anon! Do not worry anon it is okay anon because soapbox nonsense is PROBLEM anon not training experience talent anon! It is true anon! It is! If you do SOLUTION anon soapbox nonsense PROBLEM anon all game writing is cute anon! It is true anon! It is! You are a good strong friend anon!
 

PorkaMorka

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Story based RPGs can't have a renaissance until Western culture becomes less bad. So, maybe in a few centuries decades, if you're fabulously optimistic.

Combat based RPGs could potentially undergo a minor renaissance, if fans of the genre got more demanding / selective and video game developers in non-English speaking countries started to recognize that including controversial story elements was costing them money. Ideally developers should feel that they have no choice but to make their stories generic, safe, and minimal, otherwise they'll offend some group and lose lots of money.

Also it would help if people bought up all the 3d graphics processors to mine bitcoin so graphics technology stagnated for a while.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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The only fantasy writers with actual combat experience were J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis.
Aside from Tolkien and Lewis, Lord Dunsany (Edward Plunkett) served in the Boer War and again in the Great War (despite being in his late 30s), William Hope Hodgson died in the Great War (despite being older than Lord Dunsany; admittedly his fantasy works were written earlier), Edgar Rice Burroughs served for one year in the military (it didn't agree with him, and he used family connections to receive a discharge) and later was a war correspondent in the South Pacific during WWII, Mervyn Peake served in World War II from 1940-2, and Gene Wolfe served in the Korean War. Not sure if ERB or Peake ever saw combat, though. For that matter, Jack Vance joined the merchant marine in 1943 (poor eyesight prevented military service), Harlan Ellison was drafted into the army in 1957 and served for two years (but he isn't usually considered a fantasy writer), and Roger Zelazny joined the Army Reserve to avoid the draft.
 

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