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Where did they all go...

Roscoe

Novice
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
7
Location
Belgium
Is anyone else yearning for the good old days, when you had "real" RPGs instead of all the Baldur's Gate clones that are emerging these days? Especially the 3rd-person view gets my pants in a bunch. For some games, that approach works fine. Diablo 2, for example, would never be as good in 1st-person (you need a clear overview of the surroundings to survive this hack-fest). But for "proper" RPGs, 3rd-person doesn't work at all.

For some reason, it makes it much harder to properly identify with the character you play. In many instances, you get to play a whole party, making that task even more difficult. Not so in 1st-person RPGs. You see what your character(s) see. You're not just looking down on whatever they are doing (exploring, fighting, ...); you're actually among them, seeing everything from their point of view. You don't have to hover over roadsigns to learn what they say; you just *look* at them. Elevations in the surrounding terrain really mean something if they block your view (not the case in many 3rd-person games; even the "fog of war" is no real substitute).

From this perspective, the two best RPGs I've ever played are Eye of the Beholder 2 and Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss. The creepy atmosphere in both games is amazing, and I have yet to see it matched by any of the modern RPGs out there. True, Ultima was revolutionary at the time, with it's smooth movement and great graphics, but even then... Another great one was Stonekeep (it has the added bonus of being slightly different from traditional RPGs, especially in the way it uses magic).

I get the feeling that a lot of effort goes to graphics, animation, sounds, ease-of-play, etc... these days, but NOT to creating a memorable atmosphere. Standing before a closed door, nervous to open it and actually see 1st-person what's beyond doesn't really happen anymore...
 

Ibbz

Augur
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
499
Have you tried Morrowind? From what you've said, it would probably be something you'd like.
 

machinecraig

Novice
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
1
You know, I ran into this same problem a few months ago. I also loved the EOB series, and generally like dungeon crawl type RPGs... I prefer first person P0V in an RPG, but don't want it to be an Action\ RPG hybrid that needs fine tuned reflexes.

I stumbled across Wizards and Warriors (literally - tripped on it in a store), and really enjoyed it. It plays like a combination of EOB and a 1 player Everquest. Very enjoyable, and the character generation system is terrific.

If you have't tried it yet- it may help tide you over until another good RPG comes along.

Good luck! :D
 

thathmew

Zero Sum Software
Developer
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
194
Location
Austin, TX
I second Wizards and Warriors, although flawed it has some great dungeon design.

Another good first person recent is Wizardry 8. Good character system, great puzzles, the occassionally overly slow combat is the only real detractor.

-m
 

Deathy

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 15, 2002
Messages
793
I'm just wondering if you guys know about the GBA (Gameboy Advance) port of EoB.
It makes for some fun handheld RPGing.
 

Mistress

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
341
Location
UK
Deathy said:
I'm just wondering if you guys know about the GBA (Gameboy Advance) port of EoB.
It makes for some fun handheld RPGing.

*sigh* I get my GBA on saturday, but EoB isn't out for it yet here.

To answer the first post, I definitely wish there were a lot more RPGs out there that didn't just follow the current trends. I do like elements of games like Baldur's Gate - but I don't just want to see games like that, especially since they aren't what I would consider true RPGs.

I definitely think that there is a problem with elements of a game, like graphics, taking precedence over story, role-playing and atmosphere. Which is why I am increasingly turning to looking at less commercial games. Neverwinter Nights was probably a breaking point for me. As a result of playing NWN, I basically reevaluated my outlook on games, in terms of the way I view games and what I want from them, as it is pretty much the best example of what I don't like.

EDIT: Ok - I'm editing this to say more explicitly what I meant - DAMN YOU Chadeo! :P
 

Jed

Cipher
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
3,287
Location
Tech Bro Hell
Mistress said:
...I am increasingly turning to looking at less commercial games. Neverwinter Nights was probably the turning point for me in terms of the way I view games and what I want from games.

NWN was a big turning point for me as well: after so many promises, and so much hype, this game has so far failed utterly to be the role-playing panacea it was supposed to be. I, too, now find myself looking for satisfaction in the more indie developers: Prelude to Darkness, Geneforge, Avernum, and possibly others (should they ever materialize): Static, the Wasteland remake, and Devil's Whiskey. I wonder how many others were similarly "radicalized" by Never Deliver Nights?

Jed
 

Mistress

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
341
Location
UK
XJEDX said:
NWN was a big turning point for me as well: after so many promises, and so much hype, this game has so far failed utterly to be the role-playing panacea it was supposed to be. I, too, now find myself looking for satisfaction in the more indie developers: Prelude to Darkness, Geneforge, Avernum, and possibly others (should they ever materialize): Static, the Wasteland remake, and Devil's Whiskey. I wonder how many others were similarly "radicalized" by Never Deliver Nights?

Jed

Yeah! Jed got my point! :mrgreen:

Since playing NWN, I have definitely become a lot more interested in indie developers, I probably would have developed more of an interest in more indepth games anyway - but I definitely think NWN was what you might call, the last straw....
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
I don't know about you guys, but I thoroughly recommend getting Jagged Alliance 2 (Gold Edition), no matter what game you're really interested in.
 

Roscoe

Novice
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
7
Location
Belgium
Hi

I've played Morrowind and it's a decent game, but it doesn't have that atmosphere. I guess I follow Machinecraig's opinion about dungeon crawls being preferable. It's always fun to be staring into the darkness ahead and not knowing what lies beyond. It's a bit like that dark hallway you had to cross each night when you were a kid. Always on your toes and expecting a monster to jump out at each turn :P

Let's see if I can get my hands on a copy of Wizards & Warriors.
 

Azael

Magister
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Messages
4,405
Location
Multikult Central South
Wasteland 2
Exitium said:
I don't know about you guys, but I thoroughly recommend getting Jagged Alliance 2 (Gold Edition), no matter what game you're really interested in.

I agree with that, JA2 is one of my all time favorites and probably has the best turn-based combat ever. Several of the mercs also had more character than many NPCs in the so called roleplaying games of late.

XJEDX said:
NWN was a big turning point for me as well: after so many promises, and so much hype, this game has so far failed utterly to be the role-playing panacea it was supposed to be. I, too, now find myself looking for satisfaction in the more indie developers: Prelude to Darkness, Geneforge, Avernum, and possibly others (should they ever materialize): Static, the Wasteland remake, and Devil's Whiskey. I wonder how many others were similarly "radicalized" by Never Deliver Nights?

I'm really glad that I didn't buy NWN. I tried the game at an unfortunate friend's house who had bought the hype and believed that he would get a great roleplaying experience. We were both quite disappointed with what we got. The DM tools and the editors is one thing that I think is pretty good with the game, but it was marketed as a good game plus those features, not a toolkit with a piss poor campaign.

Regarding Static, I was really looking forward to that game and followed it closely. I was even a tester for the early versions of the game, too bad that it will never see the light of the day.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
Roscoe said:
Is anyone else yearning for the good old days, when you had "real" RPGs instead of all the Baldur's Gate clones that are emerging these days? Especially the 3rd-person view gets my pants in a bunch. For some games, that approach works fine. Diablo 2, for example, would never be as good in 1st-person (you need a clear overview of the surroundings to survive this hack-fest). But for "proper" RPGs, 3rd-person doesn't work at all.

The "clear view" thing is one reason I hate first person CRPGs. Third person much more displays the ability of a character's spacial awareness better than first person anyday.

First person is often like wondering around the world with a box on your head. Your field of view is extremely limited with that perspective, 90 degrees in first person games versus 160 degrees for typical human field of view.

You also have the problem with the fact that if you're looking at it, you're facing it as if every single character in the game has whiplash.

Third person, you could argue, isn't that realistic because you can constantly see everything around the character. However, play a few first person CRPGs than go take a walk around the block. Notice how much more of the world you can sense around you.

Take Morrowind for example, and the cliffracers attacking you. Often times, you know you're getting hit, but you don't see them, and you're spinning your mouse around trying to figure out where those attacks are coming from. If this was 3/4 view isometric, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

For some reason, it makes it much harder to properly identify with the character you play. In many instances, you get to play a whole party, making that task even more difficult. Not so in 1st-person RPGs. You see what your character(s) see. You're not just looking down on whatever they are doing (exploring, fighting, ...); you're actually among them, seeing everything from their point of view. You don't have to hover over roadsigns to learn what they say; you just *look* at them. Elevations in the surrounding terrain really mean something if they block your view (not the case in many 3rd-person games; even the "fog of war" is no real substitute).

Sorry, I don't have that problem. I can identify with my character and his surroundings much better in 3/4 than in first person. For example, say you're carrying a wrench around in real life. You always know you have that wrench in your hand because you can feel it there. In 3/4 view, you can often look at that wrench to see it in your character's hands.

In first person, it's either always on the screen, taking up part of the highly limited display area of your character's view, or you have to look at your inventory, or swing the wrench to see it. Factor in a shield, and you have even more of a problem. Do you want to see the shield all the time? Or do you want to either see it in use or on the inventory screen? With 3/4 view, there's no issue with this at all.

Furthermore, first person views lead to silly combat. You either have really uninteresting combat, such as Morrowind(just keep clicking that mouse button, swing! swing! swing!) or you end up with something like Wizardry8 where the whole party has to move together. You can't have the fighters forward advance the enemies while ranged people flank the enemy.

3/4 isometric, on the other hand, allows you to position your party or character. You can actually have tactical manuevering and placement, because you're totally free to move each of your people independently. Positioning alone adds more options to combat, which makes for better and more varied combat.

Imagine a 3E CRPG in first person with a party. How many rules would they have to fudge? How would Sneak Attack flanking work? How about Attacks of Opportunity? You'd have to screw up many of the facettes of the game just to hammer it in to that perspective since a lot of the 3E rules assume tactical positioning.

This is most likely why Eye of the Beholder for the GBA switches to 3/4 isometric for combat.

I get the feeling that a lot of effort goes to graphics, animation, sounds, ease-of-play, etc... these days, but NOT to creating a memorable atmosphere. Standing before a closed door, nervous to open it and actually see 1st-person what's beyond doesn't really happen anymore...

This can be done and done well in 3/4 view isometric using a line of sight system. You won't know what's behind that door, because you can't see it. The Avernum series, which feature lots of dungeons, do the line of sight thing very well.
 

Roscoe

Novice
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
7
Location
Belgium
I guess it's a matter of taste then :)

You do have a point about using the 3rd-person view to make combat more realistic (sneak attacking, positioning, ...), but with 1st-person, it still gives me the feeling of actually being there, while 3rd-person just makes me look down on "other characters just following my commands".

I think that the limited vision of 1st-person RPGs is a bonus rather than a "penalty". True, you see far less than you would in real life, but that makes certain things much more interesting. In 3rd-person, you see your enemies coming from half a screen away. Big deal. in 1st-person, you suddenly get attacked and don't immediately know from where. Or you turn around and suddenly there's a monster "in your face" (you didn't see it coming since it was behind you). That's enough to scare the piss out of you, and that's what makes it fun. Furthermore, since you feel like you're actually there (1st-person), you feel much more vulnerable. Attacks don't hit those characters down there, they hit *you*. If things go south, you have to turn around and run away. You lose sight of your enemy, and chaos/panic ensues. I love that. 1st-person seems to have a far higher fear/thrill factor than 3rd-person. For me, at least, it does.
 

Roscoe

Novice
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
7
Location
Belgium
And to stir the hornet's nest a bit further ;) I even miss the "square"-based movement of EOB. Moving fluently sure is more realistic, but the EOB-style movement sure had its charms. Realistic? Not really. Fun to play? You betcha.
 

Azael

Magister
Joined
Dec 6, 2002
Messages
4,405
Location
Multikult Central South
Wasteland 2
Roscoe said:
And to stir the hornet's nest a bit further ;) I even miss the "square"-based movement of EOB. Moving fluently sure is more realistic, but the EOB-style movement sure had its charms. Realistic? Not really. Fun to play? You betcha.

Well, I loved EoB when I still had my Amiga, but I wouldn't want games of today to use the same movement system. A hexagon movement systems makes more sense to use in a turnbased game, for exampl.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,475
Location
Behind you.
Roscoe said:
And to stir the hornet's nest a bit further ;) I even miss the "square"-based movement of EOB. Moving fluently sure is more realistic, but the EOB-style movement sure had its charms. Realistic? Not really. Fun to play? You betcha.

Try Dungeon Master Java then. It's a Java version of the original classic that Eye of the Beholder is a clone of. Even has a dungeon editor program so you can make and share your own dungeons with people.
 

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