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Which Civilization is the least dumbed-down?

Which Civilization is the least dumbed-down?

  • Civilization

    Votes: 3 3.2%
  • Civilization II

    Votes: 17 18.1%
  • Civilization III

    Votes: 5 5.3%
  • Civilization IV

    Votes: 51 54.3%
  • Civilization V

    Votes: 4 4.3%
  • Civilization VI

    Votes: 2 2.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 12.8%

  • Total voters
    94
Joined
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Why did the authors feel the need to include multiple Zebra and Giraffe cavalry units? Does the mod really need Giraffe Dragons and Zebra Chariots?
 

ValeVelKal

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Ah I just realized I mixed up FreeCiv (which I never played) and C-Evo.

C-Evo is a superior choice to CivI/CivII, and comparable in quality to Civ3. What sold it to me is that you need to research units. The way it works is that "normal" research can give you, depending on the research :
- "Unit weight" (see below) - ie the number of modules you can put on an unit
- Weapon Factor and how many "weapon modules" you can put
- Armor Factor and how many "armor modules" you can put
- Speed and how many "speed modules" you can put (+1 in speed = 2 modules iirc)
- Special capacities.

When you create an unit, you allocate to it as many "weapon/armor/speed/capacities" modules as is your maximum unit weight.

- For instance, once you have the tech "Warrior Code", you have 5 unit weights available, weapon / armor factor is 1, max modules 3. You can research a 2 Attack 3 Defense unit, or a 3 Defense 2 Attack unit, or a cheaper units (1/3 1/2, 2/2, 2/1 3/1). 1/1 is "militia" and available by default to everyone.
- With Iron Working, Weapon Factor & Defense factor increases by one, so now you can create 4/6 units, or 6/4 units.
- With Horseriding, your maximum unit weight is 7, and the maximum of speed modules is 2. So you can build 3/2/2 cavalry, or a 3/3/1 infantry, or a cheap 1/1/2 cavalry scout. Multiply weapon/armor by two if you have Iron Working,
...

Special Capacities are more late game (artillery, air defense, airdropped), or for air/ships. This is also well integrated, so for instance if you build a 2/3 infantry the game will call it "shieldbearer", and if later you make it 4/6 the game will call it a Phalanx. Of course, there are a LOT of options late game, so plenty of stats correspond to "tanks", I remember you give your late game technology names so it can be Pz III / Pz IV if you wish.

Anyway, really cool, highly recommended to civ fans.

Of course, there are still an handful of default units (militia, trade units, ...) and some Wonders give you unique units (eg Pyramids => Slave Army).

There are a few other nice perks : vicious AI, Space victory requires special resources that you need to have access on the World Map (you need 3 different types, and they are usually only in 2 - 3 locations each ; they have no other purpose so you will have to fightfor them),...
 
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ValeVelKal

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Why did the authors feel the need to include multiple Zebra and Giraffe cavalry units? Does the mod really need Giraffe Dragons and Zebra Chariots?

Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Despicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as altenate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw
Neither Giraffes nor Zebras can be domesticated in real-life for various reasons. Mankind tried to demesticate zebras for generations, so I could handwave this. But giraffe... come on. That's fantasy land. Why not hippopotamus cataphract at this point.
 

Malakal

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Civilization V 0 vote(s)
Imma proud of you, boys
Why? What's wrong with it? Honest question, I've played a lot of it in MP mode and those were good times. Haven't played much II-IV and didn't touch VI.

Its, actually, not that bad but 1UPT absolutely MURDERS AI and any challenge you may want in a game. Deity Civ5 is like Emperor in previous titles at best.

Also most mechanics are dumbed down (especially city specialists, great people) and the game always plays the same way, also slow.

With that in mind it also has some nice things, like creating your religion (what it does) so religions actually differ. On the other hand the city-state mechanic is retarded.
 

jackofshadows

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Its, actually, not that bad but 1UPT absolutely MURDERS AI and any challenge you may want in a game. Deity Civ5 is like Emperor in previous titles at best.
AI is a total shit in general because not only it cheats like a shameless skank but more importantly, it built so just to entertain you: for instance if you're playing "too peaceful" someone will 100% declare war to you even from the other corner of the map, it's nuts. But like I said, I dind't care much because I've played in MP mostly (within community with bans etc and a long list of house rules).
Also most mechanics are dumbed down (especially city specialists, great people)
That is what I asked, specifically, if someone could elaborate more, please do.
the game always plays the same way, also slow.
Nah, I disagree. Even vs AI there're options. Not many but they're there. Well, not on Deity perhaps as far as I know there's only one way: total war because yes, AI cannot fight so you just train your units to the skies and conquer everything eventually. Science race is impossible to win otherwise because of insane bonuses to AI.
On the other hand the city-state mechanic is retarded.
What you mean, happiness? Because I liked that change a lot, together with other stuff in Civ series finnaly you don't have to establish as much cities as you can and stupidly fight for land piece by piece, instead you actually place your cities more strategically.
 

Malakal

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Its, actually, not that bad but 1UPT absolutely MURDERS AI and any challenge you may want in a game. Deity Civ5 is like Emperor in previous titles at best.
AI is a total shit in general because not only it cheats like a shameless skank but more importantly, it built so just to entertain you: for instance if you're playing "too peaceful" someone will 100% declare war to you even from the other corner of the map, it's nuts. But like I said, I dind't care much because I've played in MP mostly (within community with bans etc and a long list of house rules).

Yes but Civ5 AI can't be competitive even with cheats. All Civ AIs cheat but with 1UPT they only get a carpet of doom that can't harm you. This not only kills the challenge but also kills the game performance.

OTOH in Civ4 I've had Tokugawa ram so many samurai that he killed my defending machine guns. Doom stacks may be retarded too but they provide challenge.

Also most mechanics are dumbed down (especially city specialists, great people)

That is what I asked, specifically, if someone could elaborate more, please do.

In Civ4 you can run a specialist economy, producing food on city tiles and devoting citizens to specialists, adopting caste system for more specialists, generating great people who can then join your cities as super specialists or be used to get techs. This is all gone in Civ5 as a strategy that was viable.

the game always plays the same way, also slow.
Nah, I disagree. Even vs AI there're options. Not many but they're there. Well, not on Deity perhaps as far as I know there's only one way: total war because yes, AI cannot fight so you just train your units to the skies and conquer everything eventually. Science race is impossible to win otherwise because of insane bonuses to AI.

You always research techs in the same order, with minor deviations depending on your terrain. You cant 'bulb' techs with specialists like in 4.

In 4 what you can do depends on enemies you meet, when you see Shaka and Montezuma, well you better get a big army, when you see Ghandi and Hatsepsut you can compete with them based off tech, when you see Isabella you adopt her religion and become crusader buddies. Every game is different not only because of terrain you spawn on but also depending on your neighbors, global religion spread.

On the other hand the city-state mechanic is retarded.
What you mean, happiness? Because I liked that change a lot, together with other stuff in Civ series finnaly you don't have to establish as much cities as you can and stupidly fight for land piece by piece, instead you actually place your cities more strategically.

I mean everything. Magic bonuses, unit spawn and such. City-states produce their shit from thin air.[/QUOTE]
 

Malakal

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Ah but Civ5 has aspects I like, other than aforementioned religion creation there is also very needed change of limiting uses for strategic resources (so you can not field an entire empire worth of armies from one iron deposit) and buildings increasing tile yields.
 

jackofshadows

Magister
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
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In Civ4 you can run a specialist economy, producing food on city tiles and devoting citizens to specialists, adopting caste system for more specialists, generating great people who can then join your cities as super specialists or be used to get techs. This is all gone in Civ5 as a strategy that was viable.
You always research techs in the same order, with minor deviations depending on your terrain. You cant 'bulb' techs with specialists like in 4.
Sorry but that's just fake news. In Civ 5 your great people rate of spawn is tied to amount of how many specialists you have of chosen department (science, culture, tech etc). And great people had many applications but the most important was (despite my memory is foggy in general towards this since it's been like 6-7 years ago mostly) exactly "burning" of the great scientists in order to make a huge leap in the science race. Unfortunately, their value was scaled to amount of science points you had at the moment so basically the strategy was to keep as many them as possible, approximately calculate it and then do the leap > build some X-COM for example and assault the leader's capitals one by one. I remember this clearly because it was discussed at length whether put ban on delaying that act into the house rules or not (since everyone knew this trick games it wasn't easy to pull at all and games could've ended much earlier).

The order of research tech wasn't always the same either because the fastest top branch didn't provide the most powerful unit from the middle ages: xbows so you could lose to a neibor who went for that (or even more earlier rush/some unique units from specific civs).
In 4 what you can do depends on enemies you meet, when you see Shaka and Montezuma, well you better get a big army, when you see Ghandi and Hatsepsut you can compete with them based off tech, when you see Isabella you adopt her religion and become crusader buddies. Every game is different not only because of terrain you spawn on but also depending on your neighbors, global religion spread.
Deity retardation aside, I see no difference with Civ 5. Except that diplomacy with AI is fucked due to their nature so maybe it's worse than in Civ 4 after all. But you could set yourself for any victory if you had the means (like, for diplomatic victory you needed vast amounts of coin and if you spawned at the end of the map that wouldn't the best place for mass trade routs etc). As for MP - it's up for house rules. We had somewhat competitive atmosphere and according rules so it was almost always either science or war victory (where everyone gives up slightly before that) but it could be different.
 

Malakal

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In Civ4 you can sacrifice most Great People for tech boost in their area of expertise and there are multiple strats dependent on generating an appropriate GP to get a specific tech. Based on your win condition and its pursuit. You can use a Great Artist to get fast culture techs too.

Civ5 is all tile based, specialists provide so little actual benefit its not really worth using them most of the time. And GP are very minor too, compared to what Academy gives in 5.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Why did the authors feel the need to include multiple Zebra and Giraffe cavalry units? Does the mod really need Giraffe Dragons and Zebra Chariots?

Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Despicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as altenate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw

I understand why you would include 1-2 units like that. But including: Zebra Chariots, Giraffe Archer, Giraffe Crossbowman, Zebra Archer, Bear Knight, Zebra Knight, Giraffe Carabiner, Giraffe Cavalry, Giraffe Cuirassier, Giraffe Dragon, Bombard Mammoth, Zebra Cuirassier, Zebra Cavalry, Giraffe Trench Cavalry, Giraffe Urban Raider seems a little bit excessive. Also makes me wonder why is there no Giraffe Knight or Zebra Urban Riders and Carabiners.
 

ValeVelKal

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,605
Why did the authors feel the need to include multiple Zebra and Giraffe cavalry units? Does the mod really need Giraffe Dragons and Zebra Chariots?

Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Despicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as altenate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw

I understand why you would include 1-2 units like that. But including: Zebra Chariots, Giraffe Archer, Giraffe Crossbowman, Zebra Archer, Bear Knight, Zebra Knight, Giraffe Carabiner, Giraffe Cavalry, Giraffe Cuirassier, Giraffe Dragon, Bombard Mammoth, Zebra Cuirassier, Zebra Cavalry, Giraffe Trench Cavalry, Giraffe Urban Raider seems a little bit excessive. Also makes me wonder why is there no Giraffe Knight or Zebra Urban Riders and Carabiners.
Honestly, I am not sure a giraffe would do great in urban combat.
 
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flyingjohn

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May 14, 2012
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Science race is impossible to win otherwise because of insane bonuses to AI.
No.
The ai doesn't beeline for anything,pretty much meaning he can't win jack shit.You can easily win science if you optimize and beeline for science stuff.
Your 4 good tradition cities can destroy the ai in science considering the idiot is constantly conquering/building new cities and ramping up the cost of tech so much that the bonuses evaporate.
The only hard victories are conquest and culture.
Conquest because it is a slog to go through so much shit and culture because specif wonders can make or break culture.
 
Joined
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Messages
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Why did the authors feel the need to include multiple Zebra and Giraffe cavalry units? Does the mod really need Giraffe Dragons and Zebra Chariots?

Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Despicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as altenate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw

I understand why you would include 1-2 units like that. But including: Zebra Chariots, Giraffe Archer, Giraffe Crossbowman, Zebra Archer, Bear Knight, Zebra Knight, Giraffe Carabiner, Giraffe Cavalry, Giraffe Cuirassier, Giraffe Dragon, Bombard Mammoth, Zebra Cuirassier, Zebra Cavalry, Giraffe Trench Cavalry, Giraffe Urban Raider seems a little bit excessive. Also makes me wonder why is there no Giraffe Knight or Zebra Urban Riders and Carabiners.
Honestly, I am not sure a giraffe would do great in urban combat.

I don't know, you could park it next to the building, use the neck to climb to the head and enter higher floors without having to go through the front door.
 

Fedora Master

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The Firaxis knockoffs lack a fundamental respect towards history. It is the cultural marxist idea of completely interchangeable cultures and the resulting dismissive tone towards everything. Humankind has the exact same problem.
 

jackofshadows

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Your 4 good tradition cities can destroy the ai in science considering the idiot is constantly conquering/building new cities and ramping up the cost of tech so much that the bonuses evaporate.
Interesting. That's on me of course because despite optimization skills I didn't even actually tried that properly, seeing how AI skyrocket at science on Deity. I did conquest a few times however, the last one was a big map on 6 I beleive and yeah, that was one terrible slog, never again. I wonder about diplomatic victory, pretty sure it's nearly impossible w/o waging wars because money isn't problem for AI and you have to bribe citie-states all the time for that route. And culture depending on wonders hard, yeah, it's difficult to outbuild AI at that.
 
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ValeVelKal

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Why did the authors feel the need to include multiple Zebra and Giraffe cavalry units? Does the mod really need Giraffe Dragons and Zebra Chariots?

Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Despicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as altenate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw

I understand why you would include 1-2 units like that. But including: Zebra Chariots, Giraffe Archer, Giraffe Crossbowman, Zebra Archer, Bear Knight, Zebra Knight, Giraffe Carabiner, Giraffe Cavalry, Giraffe Cuirassier, Giraffe Dragon, Bombard Mammoth, Zebra Cuirassier, Zebra Cavalry, Giraffe Trench Cavalry, Giraffe Urban Raider seems a little bit excessive. Also makes me wonder why is there no Giraffe Knight or Zebra Urban Riders and Carabiners.
Honestly, I am not sure a giraffe would do great in urban combat.

I don't know, you could park it next to the building, use the neck to climb to the head and enter higher floors without having to go through the front door.
The problem would be that it would be so easy to headshoot your mount while staying covered on the third floor of some building.
On the other hand, I believe it would be an incredible asset for a police force. Just mount a camera on top, maybe even one lightweight girl if we can breed the giraffe so have a neck that can carry weight.
 

Absinthe

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Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Depicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as alternate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw
Zebras can be tamed with a lot of effort, but it's a pain in the ass and really not something you'd see on a societal level. Zebras are extra-aggressive, basically suffer from ADD, don't take well to enclosed spaces, and don't have the best impulse control in general, so training zebras is the kind of thing that will make you want to hang yourself unless you have a real love for the activity and even then there are decent odds you will fail. Also, a zebra can kick hard enough to instantly kill african lions so good luck there.

Riding giraffes is also a stupid idea because there isn't a good way to saddle them, they eat a lot of food, and they tend not to travel very fast unless they're sprinting short distances (in which case you will probably fall off the giraffe's back).

Basically this is fictional shit. It's been attempted already and there is a reason why people don't do this shit.

Alternate technological progress is a cool idea, but I like my alternate technologies to be plausible.
 
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Malakal

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Alternate Technology/Knowledge. Depicting not just things that were, but could have been. Such as alternate domestications.
Which is cool as hell btw
Zebras can be domesticated with a lot of effort, but it's a pain in the ass and really not something you'd see on a societal level. Zebras are extra-aggressive, basically suffer from ADD, don't take well to enclosed spaces, and don't have the best impulse control in general, so training zebras is the kind of thing that will make you want to hang yourself unless you have a real love for the activity and even then there are decent odds you will fail. Also, a zebra can kick hard enough to instantly kill african lions so good luck there.

Riding giraffes is also a stupid idea because there isn't a good way to saddle them, they eat a lot of food, and they tend not to travel very fast unless they're sprinting short distances (in which case you will probably fall off the giraffe's back).

Basically this is fictional shit. It's been attempted already and there is a reason why people don't do this shit.

Alternate technological progress is a cool idea, but I like my alternate technologies to be plausible.

Well yes but they have not been bred for countless generations for the desired traits like obedience or strong legs or whatever. Just look at how our crops came to be and what they looked like originally.

We used horses because they were better suited but it is not implausible to work with other animals.

Fun fact: Scandinavians once tried using elk as cavalry mounts.

It... didn't work out.

Over how many generations of selective breeding?
 

Absinthe

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Right, you can probably breed zebras for those traits, but that's a case of putting the cart before the horse. How do you plan on selectively breeding zebras without first domesticating them and then how are you going to support your multi-generational effort at breeding zebras into something domesticable? And then how are you going to find the right strains of zebra to breed, bearing in mind that domesticated zebras are not really something you can find before your efforts pay off?

You try this shit you'll probably end up breeding zonkeys (zebra+donkey hybrids) which are either sterile or close to it.
 
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Malakal

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Right, you can probably breed zebras for those traits, but that's a case of putting the cart before the horse. How do you plan on selectively breeding zebras without first domesticating them and how are you going to support your multi-generational effort at breeding zebras into something domesticable?

Domestication is also a process that lasts generations. You do it with food and violence.
 

Inconceivable

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Civ IV is probably the Civ that got the most things right - whose systems where interesting and balanced, and worked in synergy to create a game that is good and fun to play. But instead of asking "which is the least dumbed down", the better question might have been, "which is the least bloated". I feel like Civ V and especially VI have added plenty of half-baked features that are complex or fidgety and don't feel well integrated with the rest of the game - too much busywork that simply detracts from the core experience rather than enhancing it. Some examples would be the city states in Civ V, and the religious combat and the artifacts of Civ VI.

I played Civ IV the most, ignoring Civ V and VI for the longest time, even though I really liked some features, like the new hex-tiles, and the new importance of strategic resources. Still on the fence on the one unit per tile rule. It feels too harsh and too limiting. Though I do understand the rationale behind it. The Civ IV endgame can be a real drag, because of too many cities and units to manage.

I haven't played any Civ in a while, but if I would start a new game, I think I'm finally ready to convert to Civ V with the Vox Populi mod, which has some very nice changes. Either that, or I'd start up a new game of "Civilization IV: Colonization" with the "We the People" mod, that is in active development and sounds pretty amazing. Really loved classic Colonization, and the Civ IV version is slightly different, but equally great.
 

Absinthe

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Domestication is also a process that lasts generations. You do it with food and violence.
The whole problem with zebras is that they make domestication a difficult and dangerous process and that it's difficult to make taming stick. And then there's the fact that zebras can act calm and placid until they suddenly decide to murder you and try to bite out your spine (yes, this actually happens). Another fun surprise for people attempting to breed zebras is that zebras practice infanticide at extremely high rates. That will be another source of problems. And then there's the violence between zebra males. Strictly speaking, zebras are not viewed as domesticable. I misspoke earlier and meant that you can probably tame a zebra with enough effort. But domesticating zebras has been tried for at least thousands of years and no one's quite succeeded yet. With modern resources and knowledge of genetics it might be feasible but if we're talking a primitive society it's pretty much a lost cause.
 
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