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Which game killed the shooter genre?

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Caim, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. Ravielsk Learned

    Ravielsk
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    They did not hybridize, they were simplified and then had a couple of ideas from other genres stapled onto them.

    3 out of 6 are not even shooters. They are first person games but not shooters. System shock is an actions RPG where the action part comes in the form of shooting(which purely on its own is hardly any good). Same with Deus Ex and Dishonored is a stealth game with a first person perspective. To use your own terminology these are hybridized RPGs and a stealth game, not hybridized shooters.

    I'll give you a better question: How many equally good shooters can you name? Because last time I checked the ones you named are more or less outliers and this thread is about shooter decline in general.

    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    What are good pure shooters then? Cite, say, a handful ones.
     
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  3. Lemming42 Arcane

    Lemming42
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    Serious question - what's the fundamental difference between Half-Life and Duke 3D? I'm not trying to claim they aren't notably different, because they clearly are in goals, gameplay and design, but what is it that makes Half-Life popamole while Duke presumably isn't?

    As Lyric Suite said earlier, Duke 3D represented part of a wider push towards "realism", which I take to mean setting the game in semi-believable locations and placing enemies in semi-logical locations. The only big differences in Half-Life are that there's less combat because the game often switches to platforming or puzzles (also a feature in Duke, but less pronounced), and the game has more movie-like elements (getting knocked out and thrown in the trash compactor of doom, occasional brief sequences where people talk to you to tell you plot details, and so on), while Duke conveyed those mostly through text between levels and very, very brief setpieces ("WE'RE GONNA FRY YOUR ASS, NUKEM!").

    Similarly, what are the key differences between Quake 2 and Duke 3D? I agree Quake 2 sucks shit, but that's down to unappealing visuals, clunky and boring combat, and occasionally awful bits of level design.

    I can't help but wonder if Half-Life had come out a year and a half earlier on the Build engine and been more or less the exact same game, only with like 5% more enemies and NPCs speaking to you in text rather than voiced dialogue (as in Duke 3D or NAM or whatever), the same people who shit on it would be praising it as a high point of the FPS genre and the best of the Build games.
     
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  4. seco Literate

    seco
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    See JarlFrank post
    >Also, both Half-Life games are incredibly linear. Far, far more linear than your average shooter of the time. Doom, Quake, the Build Engine games, Unreal... sure, they all had some linear levels, but your average level there involved exploring a small hub, hunting down keycards, finding secret areas, etc etc. The levels often had expansive spaces that could be tackled in several ways. You can go to the left wing of the building first or the right wing of the building, you can cross that bridge by walking over it or jump down into the water and find another way up to the other side, etc. In the Half-Life games, there is usually only ONE way forward. Not two ways, not three ways, just one. They are among the most linear shooters of their time, and a huge step back in level design compared to what came before, especially the Build Engine games and Unreal 1.
     
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  5. Morpheus Kitami Learned

    Morpheus Kitami
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    I'm not saying this in disagreement of your point, but most of those were on consoles too.
     
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  6. Derringer Savant

    Derringer
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    Indieshit like Terraria and Minecraft are partially popular due to marketing by the producers but they also allow the player the freedom to explore and build stupid shit, as soon as shooters adapted to consoles and gradually turned to linear hallway sims with experience points they took away the freedom of the player to modify player-made content, one of the big things that western games did better than the Japanese ever did. About the most entertaining thing about video games is the player-made content made with editing tools and the interactivity of the software like with Looking Glass games.
     
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  7. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    just realized we need a "dumb weeb" button
     
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  8. HeroMarine Irenaeus

    HeroMarine
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    Answering the OP without reading the thread, I'd say Gears of War and the popamole shit.
     
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  9. Assisted Living Godzilla Cipher

    Assisted Living Godzilla
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    I do sometime miss that original cartoonier looking Half-Life I first saw in Next Generation magazine with big beard Gordon Freeman.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. HeroMarine Irenaeus

    HeroMarine
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    Grand Prix Legends was an amazing race game. Recommended.
     
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  11. anvi Cipher Village Idiot

    anvi
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    Duke3d and Unreal Tournament. There was no point making FPS after that, they were never gonna be beaten. It's the Beatles and Stones of FPS and we live in an age of Taylor Swift. Hail to the kings. (Quake was cool too but.... Quake is Chuck Berry).
     
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  12. Assisted Living Godzilla Cipher

    Assisted Living Godzilla
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    I never really gave much of a shit about Quake until Quake 3 Arena. Like it was cool and all that it was in 3D, it looked nice at the time, and it was cool that there was like this Doom with 3D models...but I just kind of didn't give a shit about it until that third one and even then I played Unreal Tournament and Tribes way more.
     
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  13. Derringer Savant

    Derringer
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    UT's 'mutation' mods felt a lot more natural to use compared to Quake 3's full-on conversions, they really had to push with the esports marketing to keep people's interest in the base game.
     
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  14. Ravielsk Learned

    Ravielsk
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    Good job dodging the question.
    [​IMG]

    I refuse to list any. Based on the criteria you outlined by declaring "Shogo, SiN, Hexen, No One Lives Forever or that shoddy Malaquias angel one" to be shit you have effectively out-ruled 100% of all remaining shooters in existence. Based on that standard not even Doom can be considered to be a good shooter(neither the 1995 or 2016 and onwards).

    I instead asked you what other "hybrid shooters" can YOU name to support the claim that the genre evolved via hybridization because as far as I am aware games like "Rainbow Six, Flashpoint or Stalker" are absolute outliers and can be hardly considered as representative of any kind of evolution or improvement.

    It would be like taking sacrifice and pretending that it became a template for future RTS games when in reality its everything but that.
     
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  15. Morgoth Arcane Patron

    Morgoth
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    The shooter genre wasn't killed, it merely degenerated into banal boring shit.
     
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  16. Unreal Arbiter

    Unreal
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    Duke 3D is cool, but I always thought the combat was actually kind of weak.
     
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  17. samuraigaiden Liturgist

    samuraigaiden
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    RPG Wokedex
    For me it was the exact opposite. I was exactly the kind of angsty kid that was sold on the gothic look and the Trent Reznor OST.
     
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  18. Curious_Tongue Larpfest Patron

    Curious_Tongue
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    Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
     
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  19. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    To many hitscanners, meh weapons (other than the gimmicky ones). Yeah it's not even the best of the Build engine games.
     
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  20. samuraigaiden Liturgist

    samuraigaiden
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    RPG Wokedex
    The environmental storytelling in that E1L2 - E1L3 - E1L4 sequence is Duke 3D's biggest contribution to the genre.
     
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  21. HansDampf Arcane

    HansDampf
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    "Environmental storytelling", lol. Best part about Duke3D are the exploshuns.
    Only 5 years ago, I would have listed Duke3D in my top 10 of all time. Since then, I've played a lot of other FPS games - new and old - including a shit ton of Doom WADs, and now I'm afraid to revisit the Duke because I can tell, the combat is more on the meh-side in comparison. Still fun to look at.
     
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  22. Silva Arcane

    Silva
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    Ok, if I grok what u saying, good shooters are those arcade "shoot everything that moves" 90s games like Doom or Shogo with some veneer of story or realism or something. If you put enough story/realism/sim/tactics it's not a shooter anymore. Which nowadays would mean brainless run'n'gun shit like that future nazi one or that Shadow Chink shit or BF or whatever. Stuff with little to no interaction whatsoever besides run and shoot.

    Well, and you're still wondering why it died?

    :hmmm:


    I posit this genre deserves to be face in the mud under the boots of actual rich videogame experiences like Stalkers and Thiefs and Dishonoreds. Lest we go back to mid 2000s and the dark age of videogames led by CoD and HL2 and HALO casul shit.
     
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  23. Nark Augur

    Nark
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    Gaylo and cowadoody

    Homosexual console garbage don't @ me halo apologists
     
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  24. JackOfOwls Erudite

    JackOfOwls
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    I remember when I rented a room and the landlord's bedroom was below mine, and I was playing Duke3D late at night with what I thought was at a low, reasonable volume, and then an entire building comes down during a scripted event after an explosion and the decibel level soared gloriously and I heard a thump downstairs of my landlord probably falling out of bed, and a couple of minutes later he roared from the bottom of the stairs, "Damn, will you turn that thing down please?!!" He was a timid, meek fellow (non-euphemistically known as a "pussy") and it was out of character for him to do that. Yup, great explosions alright :lol:
     
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  25. JackOfOwls Erudite

    JackOfOwls
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    Half-Life was the first FPS for me (I played it at the time of release) where certain placed AI was designed to stop you dead in your tracks, forcing you to reload again & again, so that, in a way, was the death of FPSs as we knew them, or at least for me it was. Prior to that all FPS games I played where mellow, easy, free-wheeling zapping-them-like-bugs shooters in the style of Doom where you didn't have to think much or use any type of tactics, just exercise a reasonably good twitch reflex. I heard later versions of HL toned down the difficulty somewhat.
     
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