Why are the best PnP RPGs the best?

[MadMaxHellfire]

I'm here once again asking for your knowledge support.
I have plenty of time to waste and few ways to fill it, so to fill my empty mind lately I went back to my old RPG ruleset, with the intention of modernizing it, streamlining it, if necessary to entirely rewrite and popamolizing it.
But it's been 30 years since I wrote the first edition, I'm pretty sure the kids today play with very different rules (I shuddered when I heard about the 1 hp trash mobs in DnD 5th).
What I need you to do: would you kindly tell me which are the most used and best rulesets and (not too) briefly explain them, or at least their strong points? The alternative would be to go somewhere, download all the pdfs I could find and study them, which would take weeks, perhaps months. You can shorten this to a matter of hours, minutes even if you're really worthy denizens of the (at least once) prestigious RPGCodex.

 

[JarlFrank]

Aftermath! is the best because it has an extremely detailed combat model and I have turboautism.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Define: "best"
D&D 5e is by far the most used, nothing else even comes close.
There's an extreme bias towards "lite" and simplistic RPG rulesets now which I strongly dislike. Most of the popular ones barely even have rules anymore, it's just LARPing with some suggestions. 5E -- as reduced as it is -- could be considered rules heavy in comparison to many of them.

'm pretty sure the kids today play with very different rules (I shuddered when I heard about the 1 hp trash mobs in DnD 5th).

I believe this was actually 4e, unsure if 5e kept it. IIRC it was meant to represent swarm-like behavior in that they can easily be killed but are still very dangerous. It was likely copied from Feng Shui which called them mooks.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Thread should have been posted in the Gazebo.

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And the Gazebo should have been the name of the Adventure Gaming subforum.

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[Kev Inkline]

I like Chaosium 100% percentile system more than dice pools, even if it has a uniform distribution instead while the latter approach Gaussian. However, it avoids the hitpoint bloat completely. The 'drawback' of that is that your character won't be a superhero either, even a relatively powerless can offer a deadly experience through a freak accident.

Also it's nice to see how your stats contribute to the base-% in any given skill.

The magic system in RuneQuest isn't quite as spectacular, but for h-t-h combat the game is way more visceral, yet complicated enough and still faster to process than most competitors.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Aftermath! is the best because it has an extremely detailed combat model and I have turboautism.

i didn't know it, i went to have a look... and... well... with a little makeup and a pair of glasses with a fake nose they could pass for brothers.


on one hand i see the strengths you people are naming and i have them all, on the other hand... can anything original be done in this day and age, after 50 years of numbers and dice crunching?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Aftermath! is the best because it has an extremely detailed combat model and I have turboautism.

i didn't know it, i went to have a look... and... well... with a little makeup and a pair of glasses with a fake nose they could pass for brothers.


on one hand i see the strenght you people are naming and i have them all, on the other hand... can anything original be done in this day and age, after 50 years of numbers and dice crunching?

rpg field is massively saturated, don't expect to make it big, just do whatever you find fun

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

yeah, noticed that. i should have went all in 25 years ago, but that was an entirely different world, i was just a kid with an interview with 25th century and i thought i was smart enough i'd have got more and better chances in life. what an idiot.

 

[Sacibengala]

Go to the OSR thread.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Go to the OSR thread.

OSR is just as infected with the extreme focus on "rules-lite" nonsense.

 

[Jason Liang]

Feng Shui (Shadowfist) has my favorite rule set. I just like rule sets that yadda yadda trivial fights against mobs. The 7th Sea rule sets have the same philosophy. Very fond of 7th Sea and to a lesser extent, L5R/ Rokugan.

 

[MartinK]

The magic system in RuneQuest isn't quite as spectacular,

I find it to be a decent resource managment minigame due to how limited runepoints are and how MP demanding sorcery is. You still have spirit magic that can be casted all day long. Sure, the effects are rather unflashy compared to superhero game like DnD 5E, but I find them quite well integrated into the combat system.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Feng Shui (Shadowfist) has my favorite rule set. I just like rule sets that yadda yadda trivial fights against mobs. The 7th Sea rule sets have the same philosophy. Very fond of 7th Sea and to a lesser extent, L5R/ Rokugan.

Jason just came up with some cool sounding Chinese/Asian names to sound like an expert. Those are not even real games.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i'm browsing through aftermath's rules, and sometimes it can be hilarious.

The basic procedure for Combat is straightforward.

so funny.

it goes on to explain its straightforwardness:

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The attacking character’s Basic Chance of Success in the Combat Skill that is being applied is modified by Restrictions, Distractions, Situational Modifiers and the opponent’s Defensive Ability. The player then rolls 1D20. If the number falls in the modified range the opponent has been hit. If not, he has been missed. Oncetheopponent is hit the player determines his Damage Potential white the Gamesmaster determines the Location of the hit. The Armor Value of the protection that the opponent is wearing is subtracted from the character’s Damage Potential and the result is the damage applied to the opponent. A die roll of 1 always hits except in the case of the ”hopeless” attack. A die roll of 20 always misses. Under most circumstances these die rolls indicate a Critical Hit and a Critical Miss, respectively. A flowchart of the combat procedures is provided in Appendix 2.

CONDUCTING AN ATTACK To conduct an attack the player states to the Gamesmaster what Combat Skill the character is using and whether any secondary strikes will be attempted. This is done when the character initiates the attack. The primary strike (the only one if there is no secondary strike) uses the full Basic Chance of Success (BCS) and the secondary strike uses the average BCS. This is the Base BCS. The Base BCS if then modified by the Restrictions due to positioning on the DAT Display. It is further modified by an Distractions present. The above can be determined by the player. The player and Gamesmaster jointly determine if there are any situational Modifiers. This is done jointly because while some of the modifiers will be perfectly obvious, there may be modifiers, known to the Gamesmaster, of which the character is unaware. The Gamesmaster will then subtract the Overall Defense Ability of the defender. This yield the Adjusted BCS which is the number which the player must roll less than or equal to on 1D20 in order to hit the defender.

and on and on and on.

 

[JamesDixon]

i'm browsing through aftermath's rules, and sometimes it can be hilarious.

The basic procedure for Combat is straightforward.

so funny.

it goes on to explain its straightforwardness:

Spoiler

The attacking character’s Basic Chance of Success in the Combat Skill that is being applied is modified by Restrictions, Distractions, Situational Modifiers and the opponent’s Defensive Ability. The player then rolls 1D20. If the number falls in the modified range the opponent has been hit. If not, he has been missed. Oncetheopponent is hit the player determines his Damage Potential white the Gamesmaster determines the Location of the hit. The Armor Value of the protection that the opponent is wearing is subtracted from the character’s Damage Potential and the result is the damage applied to the opponent. A die roll of 1 always hits except in the case of the ”hopeless” attack. A die roll of 20 always misses. Under most circumstances these die rolls indicate a Critical Hit and a Critical Miss, respectively. A flowchart of the combat procedures is provided in Appendix 2.

CONDUCTING AN ATTACK To conduct an attack the player states to the Gamesmaster what Combat Skill the character is using and whether any secondary strikes will be attempted. This is done when the character initiates the attack. The primary strike (the only one if there is no secondary strike) uses the full Basic Chance of Success (BCS) and the secondary strike uses the average BCS. This is the Base BCS. The Base BCS if then modified by the Restrictions due to positioning on the DAT Display. It is further modified by an Distractions present. The above can be determined by the player. The player and Gamesmaster jointly determine if there are any situational Modifiers. This is done jointly because while some of the modifiers will be perfectly obvious, there may be modifiers, known to the Gamesmaster, of which the character is unaware. The Gamesmaster will then subtract the Overall Defense Ability of the defender. This yield the Adjusted BCS which is the number which the player must roll less than or equal to on 1D20 in order to hit the defender.

and on and on and on.

It is if you love flowcharts. Here's the GM Screen with the relevant data.

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Aftermath! is very simulationist and an example of how detailed certain systems got to be even back in the early 1980s.

West End Games Star Wars is a good example of doing cinematic gaming right. It got the feel of the movies down to a T. It's pretty lethal to where dodging and cover are a must. It also is simple to pick up where it uses templates for a starting point for characters.

Hero System or GURPS is good if you want to know how to do a point based classless system. For Hero System, I recommend 6th Edition since it removes a lot of the balance problems with figured stats. For GURPS, it's got to be 4th Edition.

OD&D is good to learn for what the very first rpg was trying to do. AD&D in both editions are good to see where Gary was taking the original to by expanding out the core to make races separate from classes. OD&D Rules Cyclopedia is a different take on the advanced format.

DANDINO (D&D In Name Only) is a cautionary tale on what not to do. They are all terrible rule systems that introduced more bloat then AD&D writers could only dream of.

Basic Role Playing is pretty good for handling percentile based classless system.

There are others like Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, etc... but they are just riffs on older games systems. About the only two unique ones I can think of are Role Master and Phoenix Command.

This ultimately boils down to your goal of what do you want to make? Did you want a mix of the standard prior way of doing things or did you want to do your own take on a specific system? In the US, game mechanics are not patentable or copyrighted. What is copyrighted is the exact expression used in the final product. If you wanted to you could make OD&D mechanically and just rephrase it into a new rendition. Wizards of the Woke cannot stop you.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

exactly the kind of post i was hoping for, thank you.
in my first edition i went for a very old school system, times change, 30 years later i want a simple and consistent structure which should be infinitely expanded. the hardest part is the consistence, if i can keep everything on 10 and 100 i can limit the whole game to a single d10. little to no tables, once they get the gist of it players should be able extrapolate even the most complex rules just by looking at a character sheet. from other rulesets i'm looking for more elengant solutions to issues i might still have to face, or just inspiration.
on this, i've been surprised, shocked, by the gurps supplements. holy crap, literature and cinema references everywhere, a maniacal research on every subject possible, and very well done too, from the amount of starship engines worthy of projectrho to getting right pretty much every aspect of the jeet kune do. almost a full encyclopedia. i wasn't expecting such a titanic work.

 

[JamesDixon]

exactly the kind of post i was hoping for, thank you.
in my first edition i went for a very old school system, times change, 30 years later i want a simple and consistent structure which should be infinitely expanded. the hardest part is the consistence, if i can keep everything on 10 and 100 i can limit the whole game to a single d10. little to no tables, once they get the gist of it players should be able extrapolate even the most complex rules just by looking at a character sheet. from other rulesets i'm looking for more elengant solutions to issues i might still have to face, or just inspiration.
on this, i've been surprised, shocked, by the gurps supplements. holy crap, literature and cinema references everywhere, a maniacal research on every subject possible, and very well done too, from the amount of starship engines worthy of projectrho to getting right pretty much every aspect of the jeet kune do. almost a full encyclopedia. i wasn't expecting such a titanic work.

You might want to consider how linear vs. bell curve distribution affects play. With a linear distribution you have an equal chance to hit a single number on the die. Modifiers can really break your roll, while not giving you the successes you want through criticals.

Bell curve is using a minimum of 3 dice to ensure stability in the roll. It starts with the assumption that your character is competent. Modifiers can make or break you evenly. Each +/-1 can be 16.6% on a 3d6 roll. However, if you use something like Hero System's roll formula you'll get an 11 or less for the base roll on a stat of 10-11. The formula is 9+(char/5), so with a 10 or 11 in a stat the formula is 9+2=11 or less to succeed. If you use anydice.com it will give you the breakdown of the dice spread including means and the like.

GURPS and Hero System both have extensive resource libraries with GURPS having the most in depth. I use it for my own writing for RPGs.

Other thoughts, classless/templates allow for character personalization with very few cookie cutter builds. The downside is that to get the most out of it you need very creative players. Classes are restrictive, but can be fun within their restrictions. Classes are very newbie friendly.

Skills are the third part of the equation here. Without a good skill system your game will suck. My advice is to look at what Hero System has done. They have the most comprehensive skill system in existence with GURPS coming a close second.

Fourth part helps with the prior three points. That is what type of game are you trying to achieve? You have several choices that range hard on realism to cinematic experiences. If you want realism then you should go with a bell curve dice mechanics, classless system, skills, advantages, and disadvantages. If you want cinematic then look to the Open D6 system. It powered Ghostbusters International and West End Games Star Wars. It really comes down to what you are trying to do. Notice that Hero System is a realistic cinematic experience. Your character can die pretty easily, but they do great feats in the process.

 

[deuxhero]

Other thoughts, classless/templates allow for character personalization with very few cookie cutter builds. The downside is that to get the most out of it you need very creative players. Classes are restrictive, but can be fun within their restrictions. Classes are very newbie friendly.

I disagree. classless systems are just as prone to cookie cutter builds as classed system. All it requires is imbalance, which is unavoidable when character customization exists.

 

[JamesDixon]

Other thoughts, classless/templates allow for character personalization with very few cookie cutter builds. The downside is that to get the most out of it you need very creative players. Classes are restrictive, but can be fun within their restrictions. Classes are very newbie friendly.

I disagree. classless systems are just as prone to cookie cutter builds as classed system. All it requires is imbalance, which is unavoidable when character customization exists.

Well, that's your opinion, but when you have comprehensive systems like Hero it really is true. There are no cookie cutter builds because you are free to customize the character using the balanced tools available. All that matters is the points and if they add up.

 

[deuxhero]

You are free to customize characters in class systems (to a somewhat lesser degree) and can absolutely but as long as some options are better than others there will options taken more than others. Perhaps not full builds, but definitely chunks ("these two powers work really well together so they're always taken together")

 

[JamesDixon]

You are free to customize characters in class systems (to a somewhat lesser degree) and can absolutely but as long as some options are better than others there will options taken more than others. Perhaps not full builds, but definitely chunks ("these two powers work really well together so they're always taken together")

That never was my argument or position. Stop fishing for one. I presented the broad overview for his consideration. It is a generalization.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

my rule of thumb is "do whatever the fuck you want with this, but this is how i'd suggest you to use it: this is just a tool to help you have fun, put as many points as you want wherever you want, but it's probably not going to be entertaining if you don't stay inside these limits". 1 vs 1 combat is mostly "low precision, high lethality" but a well organized team effort can improve chances dramatically, no character will ever be a one man army, even godlike snipers or muhammad i'm hard bruce lee, a bullet is a bullet (but i made sure to take into consideration how tough the human body can be, i had doctors to consult about this).

no mandatory classes, only suggested templates. in 1.0 i had so many skills i'd put all gurps books combined to shame, now i'm thinking about cutting many of them but having a sandbox "extra" section for customization. after all it's useless, while fighting in the jungle, to be constantly reminded you know nothing about space literature and hungarian cuisine, but if you do, well of course that branch might remind you of an alien poem you were reading while eating goulash.

this is probably going to sound arrogant, but i'm fine with my approach to dice rolls. combat is a scary situation, people are not superheroes and miss a lot, playing in group is fun even if no one hits anyone, as long as you can try different approaches, and i'm almost there. i'm trying to make the rules modular, "this is the most basic stuff, find a number, roll a dice. if you want more complexity (and some more rolls which would curve the chances) here's some more". the downside is that i can't have many intertwined systems this way. not that i should, they work horribly with pnp, with tons of numbers to delete and rewrite, it's a gigantic waste of time, it's just not fun and deteriorates the sheet itself.

gotta run, i'll be bach.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if your rules boil down to "just do whatever" then why do I need them?

I hate RPGs that do this shit, imagine playing a board game and the rules say "eh, just make it up as you go along lol"

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

house.
rules.
no one has never used any, no one has never argued over stock rules. if you take a ruleset as a bible, you must be fun as... as... no way to make a hyperbolized comparison, you're the most unfun, dense village idiot ever.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

AD&D in both editions are good to see where Gary

This nigga really calling him "Gary" like he used to drink beers with 'em hahahahaha

Nigga you call 'em MR. GYGAX like all of us.

Don't let me catch you around the dumpster out back either.