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Why codex dislikes balance

luj1

You're all shills
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Obsession with balance creates boring worthless systems like the one in PoE

Contrary to popular myth PoE wasn't even balanced (the races and classes weren't)

Subduing game design to accessibility was a much bigger issue than balance. Soyer wanted to please everybody and no wonder it failed

"Balance" was in the form of limiting the player (zero exp areas to curb overleveling and so on)
 

Fedora Master

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Edgy
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Obsession with balance creates boring worthless systems like the one in PoE

Contrary to popular myth PoE wasn't even balanced (the races and classes weren't)

"Balance" was in the form of putting limits on the player (zero exp areas to curb overleveling and so on)

True, but in the spirit of balance it lead to such nonsensical shit as wizards needing strength.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Obsession with balance creates boring worthless systems like the one in PoE

Contrary to popular myth PoE wasn't even balanced (the races and classes weren't)

"Balance" was in the form of putting limits on the player (zero exp areas to curb overleveling and so on)

True, but in the spirit of balance it lead to such nonsensical shit as wizards needing strength.

I feel that's more about core system symmetry
 

sser

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Lack of balance can lead to replayability. I used to play the hell out of Freedom Force for example because it was as much fun rolling an uber team of obviously OP characters as it was rolling a team of sidekicks who had severely lacking abilities.

All approaches to balance can be good if the game is fun.

I'm also a big fan of the "everyone is OP as hell" approach of DOTA but I think that's more for multiplayer games than single.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
RPGs as a genre are inherently imbalanced and trying to change that is just going to make it lame and sap its spirit.

In original D&D, were the classes really balanced? LOL no. Fighters are the supermen at low levels, while wizards are weaklings who die to one unlucky crit and their spell selection is laughably small. But once you reach mid and high levels, the fortunes reverse and wizards are OP while fighters are reduced to mere meatshields. And rogues? LOL. You gotta take one along to pick locks and disarm traps, but in combat they were total shit. But it's still nice to have a player in the group who goes for that class due to the non-combat stuff.

It wasn't balanced at all. Yet every class is fun to play. Why? Because every class is useful in its own way and has a specific role to play. Therefore it's called a role playing game.

Good CRPGs are similar. There are different classes who are good at different things. They're not supposed to be equally good at the same thing. You can be good at fighting or at sneaking or at spellcasting or at diplomacy. In class-based systems your character's specialties are determined by class, in classless systems you're more flexible and can make jack of all trades who are masters of none. Different characters gain different benefits from different skills. It makes sense that a wizard should have high INT and WIS and a fighter high STR and CON. You can also play deliberately gimped characters like a low INT wizard who can barely cast any spells and is a bumbling fool - bad for dungeon crawl campaigns, but fun to play in a more lighthearted campaign.

Overbalancing leads to everything feeling samey, and yes most of the Codex thinks of PoE as the prime example, where for some reason wizards need big muscles to give power to their spells (??). But it's not just PoE, there's a general "overbalancing" mindset among some designers that leads to samey, uncreative and boring characters. Usually, such design aims at making all the classes equally good at all the tasks. Encountered a lock? Wizard casts unlock spell, fighter uses bash, thief uses lockpicks. All these abilities are gained at the same level of the respective class: thieves learn how to lockpick at level 2, unlock spell is a level 2 spell, lock bashing is a level 2 warrior ability. All the same. No reason to pick one over the other. Really lame.

You want different characters to play differently, you want different levels to play differently, and you want a large amount of options for the player.
Arcanum is known to be a hideously imbalanced game yet I fucking love it and playing different characters is such a joy. It's not particularly difficult either so playing deliberately gimped characters is viable and fun, too. Dwarven wizard even tho dwarves have an inherent pro-tech anti-magic aptitude? Yep. Elven techie even though elves have a pro-magic anti-tech aptitute? Yeah. Going for all-powerful world-shattering wizard who abuses the overpowered level 1 harm spell to murderize everything? Fun. Playing a techie who has to scrounge for scrap in trash bins and is pretty underpowered until you finally get those OP crafting schematics at the end? Fun, too. Archer whose rate of firing arrows is so rapid, it feels like a machinegun bow? Hilarious. Trying to use a gun when you have a magical aptitude so every time you pull the trigger there's a chance it blows up in your face? LMAO. Diplomat who just skips the worst dungeon in the game by using in-depth dwarven philosophy? Cool.

Arcanum is hilariously unbalanced, yet playing different types of characters is so fun because they play so differently. Some are inherently OP while others really struggle until the endgame, but that just contributes to the fun factor even further. It's cool when your choice of class can affect the difficulty, you can go for challenge runs where you attempt to win with the most gimped character possible.

An overbalanced game offers little replay value because ultimately, all characters feel the same.

Oh yeah, and nothing says that every character has to be able to see all the content. Arcanum has several dungeons you will only enter if you become a master in a certain skill, as they're connected to the skill master quest. Content exclusive to some classes or characters with certain abilities is always cool. Can't do the burglary quests unless you got thief skills? Yeah makes sense, and gives you an incentive to play as a rogue (who in most systems is a bit underpowered in combat compared to other classes). The "everything ends in peaceful negotiations" ending is only available to characters with a high speech skill, and other chars have to make do with one of the other endings? Totally makes sense.

It's completely fine to have side quests or entire questlines that are locked for most characters, except those with the appropriate skills. Making sure every quest can be solved by every character is a form of overbalancing too, and makes you feel like your skill choices don't matter that much. We all know the examples. The enemy manor where you can either sneak inside, convince the guard to let you in, use a spell to get in, or fight your way in. It's cool when a quest gives you so many alternative options. But when EVERY quest gives a unique solution for EVERY character type, it starts feeling artificial. Like... why does EVERY single enemy base have a backdoor you can sneak into? To make sure players who play a rogue can finish that entire questline? But now it just feels lame and boring and formulaic rather than "hey look at the amount of choices I have", because every quest was designed with a checklist to make sure every class has a way of solving it. Lame.

I agree with this. But much of this seems to speak to the problem of implementing interesting classes (or whatever one wants to call them) in a CRPG, i.e. the limitations of having to represent everything on screen in some way (or sometimes the input limitations).

IOW, in a tabletop game, because it's all in the imagination, anything can happen, and while damage is still important, there's often more than one way to skin a cat, and odd classes have a chance to contribute and shine. But when you're limited to what can be represented on a computer screen, that's when everything devolves to combat being the only really interesting and viable thing that can be done quickly enough with sufficient ROI given resource, time and energy limitations. (In fact, paradoxically, the better graphics get, the worse the problem becomes; it was easier to fill in large happenings in the imagination when the representation was just a few blocky pixels, but when everything has to be represented as realistically as possible, the work is multiplied - although there again, it seems that developers in the past also had to devote a big chunk of development to graphics, primitive though they were.)

And the result of that is that "damage is king." So then tremendous stress is placed on combat progression as a load-bearing component of the game, and the only kind of loot that's exciting is loot that improves combat capability. And so on and so forth (the whole dance between balance and interestingness people have been canvassing).

I first noticed this in MMOs - most MMOs have started off with lots of interesting classes that do cool things (e.g. various types of cc), but by about the second or third year, the focus eventually narrows down to damage and damage alone. Unless you can find things for the interesting or quirky classes to do that are clutch in some way (either for the solo player or for the team), the player of that class is always going to feel sub-par compared to the damage monsters. But why bother making efforts to cater, when combat is the thing that's best represented in videogame format anyway (i.e. it comes back to time and resources).

I dunno, I really don't see any resolution to this until there are more advances in AI (such that the AI can be a DM as intelligent and sensitive to players' fun conditions as a human, and capable of prepping and unfurling an interesting world/story behind the scenes in response to player choices, where those choices can involve much more than just combat), and/or more advances in virtual reality (Star Trek's holodeck type of thing). Another option would be to explore the NWN pw idea further, and somehow make troll-proof a system in which players can DM for each other, as it were (or maybe even the developers could employ people to DM for batches of simultaneous single players).

Some games (e.g. at the moment Disco Elysium and Solasta: Crown of the Magister come to mind) seem to show the way of implementing non-combat stuff in a more fleshed-out way on the computer. But again, it all comes down to time, energy and money. It's always going to be just easier to go for combat-centric games - after all, most players don't finish them anyway. So it's always going to be hard for developers who have more of a broader vision to get enough support to realize their vision.
 
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Black

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You just have to look at good rpgs that aren't balanced and then good rpgs that are balanced.
 

Cryomancer

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then good rpgs that are balanced.

Can you name one?

Good RPG's that are balanced just doesn't exist.

iu
 

TemplarGR

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Various interesting and unique options (call it variety) and balance, or basic viability for the different options and trying to prevent a few options from being over-powered.

That is why i stopped caring about the RPG part of the forum, i can't be bothered reading stupidity like this...

If there is no balance, then there are no "interesting" options or variety. You are either picking the OP options or gimp yourself on purpose. It is why most faggots cry that Skyrim only has stealth archer as a class (and they are correct in that regard).

You can't separate balance from variety of options. Having "options" by definition means that those options are similar in attractiveness and you get to choose based on preference. If one option is clearly better or some other option is clearly shit, then it is not really an option.

For example if i hold a gun up your head and tell you "you either give me your anus to fuck without lube or i shoot and kill you", and you choose to live, i can't go around and tell everybody "hey this faggot opted to have me drill his asshole". Obviously there was no real option here.....
 

deuxhero

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Because the Codex mainly focuses on single player games. In single-player games, variety and customization is far, far, more important than balance and greater balance generally comes at the cost of worse variety and options (the inverse is not true. 5E D&D is a good example of having few options but having massive balance disparity between them).
 

Cryomancer

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If there is no balance, then there are no "interesting" options or variety. You are either picking the OP options or gimp yourself on purpose. It is why most faggots cry that Skyrim only has stealth archer as a class (and they are correct in that regard).

For me, this is a good aspect of skyrim. Archery is TRASH on most games. Could be better with more in depth armor mechanics, different projectile speed depending on the arrow, windage, etc; but even I who an a diehard magefag played a lot as a archer on skyrim and got a lot of fun. The DLC's did a good job with vampire lord but that is it. Melee in skyrim is awful. Is just endless left click/R1 spam...

If archers had 13m range like on other games, skyrim would probably be far more balanced. But better?



I strongly disagree with you. Is not "OP vs gimp options", the point of a game is to have fun. On Arcanum, I can have fun in a pure CHA build, making suboptimal builds like a drwarf magician or doing tryhard builds. Playing Gothic 2 - returning as a WATER mage was definitively not optimal. Fire mages has ludicrous AoE damage and necros can summon hordes and hordes of undeads and demons. The Ice Dragon which is the strongest one is even tougher against water magic, and undeads are extremely resistant to water magic. Not having the ability to summon hordes of archdemons to kill the most terrifying bosses was a hard challenge but I enjoyed each second playing g2 - ret as a WM, except when I was a circle 3 WM, with only lightning ball. Chargeable spells aren't good on returning.

Low INT builds on fallout 1/2 aren't optimal but are fun non the less.

Having a ultra powerful option that trivializes the game or make the game impossible is a problem not cuz "muh balance" but cuz this options are BORING. IF all options are in either ultra easy or ultra hard, the game would be far more balanced. But better? What if VtMB devs had removed the Nosferatu clan, or removed the deformity curse. It would lead to a far more balanced game, but better?
 
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Harthwain

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What if VtMB devs had removed the Nosferatu clan, or removed the deformity curse. It would lead to a far more balanced game, but better?
You can play Nosferatu almost as a regular vampire.

Pretty much the only thing you have to watch out for is getting too close to regular people (I am not even going to consider them NPCs). This means you don't really have to use the sewers to travel - I finished the game as Nosferatu walking directly on the streets. I never had problem buying any stuff or getting blood, because everyone else you can interact with won't really mind and it won't be considered a masquerade violation.
 

Ol' Willy

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For example if i hold a gun up your head and tell you "you either give me your anus to fuck without lube or i shoot and kill you", and you choose to live, i can't go around and tell everybody "hey this faggot opted to have me drill his asshole". Obviously there was no real option here.....
Templar talking about gay anal sex. You just can't get enough of that stuff, do ya?
 

Azdul

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There are boring ways to balance the game. Armor that reduces 17% of fire damage, or grenade that has 7% chance of failing to explode do not create interesting strategies.

If some ability or item seem rather tame, but create interesting synergies with other game elements, or requires expert ability to execute to show true power, or shine in specific tactical situations - then it is properly balanced. Even if you change some properties by 20%, like damage, price, number of charges - it will stay balanced, players will just adapt and use it in different situations.

If game systems are well designed, they do not suddenly becomes unbalanced if you mess with numbers and statistics.
 

Yaz

Learned
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Nov 10, 2020
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283
I prefer when ''balance'' in a game means that it can still challenge you no matter what kind of build you're playing. That's when I am having fun.

It would seem that ''balance'' means different things to different people but I am not here to argue about that.
 
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Balance is important in my opinion, putting spells and items that are worthless or inferior in every way and situation to their counterparts it's bad design.

Overall, there's 6 ways of balancing that i know:

Scarcity: arrows, scrolls, potions and others consumable items...

Availability: how hard or how long it takes to obtain certain items or spells. E.g: long sword +1 is better than a normal long sword, but you have to use normal long sword until you can find or buy a long sword +1, therefore balanced.

Value: how expensive certain items and spells are.

Specialism: Thief is good at opening chests and doors but weak in combat. And a rock-paper-scissor system. e.g: water magic is strong against fire enemies, so even if water magic is worthless 90% of the time, still have some good use in some specific parts of the game.

Power by Game lenghty: mages are weak early game but grows stronger as the game progresses, or fighters are strong early game but falls off late game.

Restriction: mages can't use long sword but can use daggers, therefore making daggers useful even if they're straight up inferior to long swords.



People saying that balance doesn't allow overpowered shit and ruins fun, I disagree. You can have overpowered shit and be balanced with how expensive it's to buy, how hard or how long it takes to find or how scarce it's to use.

Some classes combinations and builds being overpowered or weak it's fine. A Orc being a good fighter but dogshit as a wizard it's fine, neither the Orc race or the Wizard class are weak, just the combination that it's shit.
 
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ValeVelKal

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What if VtMB devs had removed the Nosferatu clan, or removed the deformity curse. It would lead to a far more balanced game, but better?
You can play Nosferatu almost as a regular vampire.

Pretty much the only thing you have to watch out for is getting too close to regular people (I am not even going to consider them NPCs). This means you don't really have to use the sewers to travel - I finished the game as Nosferatu walking directly on the streets. I never had problem buying any stuff or getting blood, because everyone else you can interact with won't really mind and it won't be considered a masquerade violation.
Same here. First game as Nosferatu. I just walked directly on the road in the middle of the street. ^^
 

Cryomancer

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Tremere is my favorite clan on VtMB. Sadly, balance cultists will NEVER allow us to do things like blood boil on modern games. Just imagine being able to cast this cool old school spells/disciplines/skills with modern graphics. Or fly like on M&M VI. Modern hardware is much more powerful and modern game engines too, so we could have ArmA 3 style ballistics for ranged weapons, firearms or not and magical projectiles. We could have 100% scenario destruction in a RPG, hell, we have it on FPS since BFBC2. But no, thanks to balance cultism, we will never see this cool things on RPG's.



And the fact that RPG's are becoming more and more gear farming, cooldown managing games instead of alternative fictional worlds to explore, is mostly thanks to balance cultism. Gothic 2 - returning, in order to become a necromancer, you need to :

  • Ask Xardas for apprenticeship
  • Wait until he decides and he will try to persuade you to maybe become a Fire or Water magician since Dark magic is too dangerous.
  • Become a novice of darkness
  • Start to train your mind by doing intellectual things like alchemy, reading books, learning new languages, etc.
  • And pay magicians like Vatras to train your spirit until you get high INT/high mana
  • Once your mind and spirit is strong enough, do the initiation into the circle of darkness. It involves killing a sheep of Innos, in a monastery full of circle 3/4/5/6 fire magicians while you can't even learn circle 1 magic. The weakest fire magician can OHK you many times with an single spell. That quest involve a lot of planing, the best place and time to attack, finding escape routes and so on.
  • Learn the first magical circle, and a spell gather the reagents, an arrow of darkness scroll and make your spell
  • The risk of losing control over your undead was sadly removed due bugs.
This is an RPG game.

Being Conan the Barbarian with novice level on every magical school and the archmage of the college of winterhold is so nonsensical.
 

Ol' Willy

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Blood Boil is too expensive and not as effective on bosses: spamming Blood Strike is much more effective, I roflstomped Chinese bitch and Magilla Gorilla exactly that way.
 

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