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Why did Generic-Giant-Spider get nuked from orbit?

Non-Edgy Gamer

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I have just confirmed from GGS that EO was not GGS. He merely had contact with GSS outside of the Codex.

I guess 2+2=5 after all, eh, Darth Roxor? :M
 

darkpatriot

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And harassment is another example of that. Even though almost all harassment is carried out via some kind of communication, it doesn't make the act of harassing someone speech. The act or behavior of harassment is not speech, even though speech is used to do it.

The issue with harassment though is that it is a subjective thing, the issue seems to me that there is no common understanding on what is harassing and what is speech here, well and currently everywhere else.

I mean it seems to me pretty evident that harassment claims are used more and more to actually harass others, since it can be used to silence those who want to speak.

It depends on how you define it and use it. You certainly could have a vague definition that invites subjectivity that you are willing to enforce at the slightest hint of violation, and that is extremely susceptible to people weaponizing it. Which is why I have said several times that I think any rule about enforcement needs to be balanced against the possibility of it being weaponized to try to get people banned/in trouble.

I think a reasonable harassment rule that avoids that isn't particularly challenging to create. Especially, when enforcement includes warning steps to tell people, "Hey, stop doing that".

The way the codex defines it and enforces it? The codex definition is kinda vague, but given the extremely lax enforcement I don't think there are really any problems with it being weaponized. I really doubt that anyone would deny there was harassment in this case. It was extremely personal, done with the purpose of upsetting a specific person, done over an extended period of time, was identified as something that was deeply upsetting to the victim, and the perpetrator was asked and then told to knock it off repeatedly. You have to go pretty far to actually draw any kind of punishment for it on the codex.

I'm sure the legal definition for real life harassment is also fairly well-defined in most jurisdictions. Even if the law itself was poorly worded, case law would have better defined it. And as in all cases when there is a subjective judgement in the law, they use some kind of reasonable person standard.
 

darkpatriot

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btw do we consider "making fun of someone for being gang-raped" above or below making fun of dead relatives?

It wouldn't just be making fun of someone. Based on the way rule 4.0 is written and the enforcement example here, you won't get in trouble just for making fun of someone.

The key thing that would get you in trouble seems to be doing it for an extended period of time consistently with the specific purpose of trying to upset someone. And then continuing to do it after moderators tell you to knock it off.
 
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Non-Edgy Gamer

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The way the codex defines it and enforces it? The codex definition is kinda vague, but given the extremely lax enforcement I don't think there are really any problems with it being weaponized. I really doubt that anyone would deny there was harassment in this case. It was extremely personal, done with the purpose of upsetting a specific person, done over an extended period of time, was identified as something that was deeply upsetting to the victim, and the perpetrator was asked and then told to knock it off repeatedly. You have to go pretty far to actually draw any kind of punishment for it on the codex.
Let me ask you though: since this was so deeply upsetting...did the victim hit the ignore button? And if other people brought up what he was saying, did he ignore them too?
It wouldn't just be making fun of someone. Based on the way rule 4.0 is written and the enforcement example here, you won't get in trouble just for making fun of someone.
The real rule is that if someone complains, gets a mod to say something to you about it, and then you IN ANY WAY seem to go against what that mod said, you get banned.

GGS made the mistake of doing that, and of pissing off DU, so he got iced. There is no timer DU kept on his desk for however long this has gone on. It was permitted until DU had enough. That's how it works. And that's DU's prerogative, even if I disagree with its necessity.

What I have more of a problem with is nuking someone with no proof, just because you suspect they're an alt.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Old Otter post https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/farewell-codex.48293/page-3#post-1286861

I don't believe he was either GGS or saeci. Those two have ragged on me, but not with the hostility that Otter did (though I noticed that Otter cooled down on this with my last interactions with him, possibly because saeci and GGS told him to ease up when it was clear I would not be hostile to them).
wow, sma. you really are a tranny whore. you'll jump anyone's bones, provided that they are not ugly/batshit.
Oh wow. Darth Roxor, Tacgnol, Jasede, ropulos... What can I say? You're right. This is sooooooo different from the electric otter of today. What was I thinking?

Look how well-written he was. How grammatically perfect. How much thought, effort and class he put into every post!

Please, tell me Codex: who is the foul doppelganger who stole the form of this erudite philosopher and gentleman? I demand to know!
 

darkpatriot

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The way the codex defines it and enforces it? The codex definition is kinda vague, but given the extremely lax enforcement I don't think there are really any problems with it being weaponized. I really doubt that anyone would deny there was harassment in this case. It was extremely personal, done with the purpose of upsetting a specific person, done over an extended period of time, was identified as something that was deeply upsetting to the victim, and the perpetrator was asked and then told to knock it off repeatedly. You have to go pretty far to actually draw any kind of punishment for it on the codex.
Let me ask you though: since this was so deeply upsetting...did the victim hit the ignore button? And if other people brought up what he was saying, did he ignore them too?

No one ever has to ignore if they don't want to. I'm sorry, I don't really have any sympathy at all for picking on someone in a malicious way. Joking around between friends is one thing, but trying to cause someone deep personal upset is another. Incidental upset due to the sensitive topics being discussed or criticism is also a different thing.

I personally think less of people I see doing it, and I am not in the least bit put off by moderation to curtail it. There is a risk of zealous over moderation allowing people to weaponize it, and that is the main reason to not enforce it too quickly and easily. But that isn't what happened here as it is clear to any reasonable person that this crossed the line into harassment.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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No one ever has to ignore if they don't want to.
So, hitting the report button is ok, but hitting the ignore button isn't?

Isn't the only difference between the two getting the admins involved? IF you actually keep them on Ignore, that is.

I'm sorry, I don't really have any sympathy at all for picking on someone in a malicious way.
And to rusty_shackleford's point, where is that line? You claimed to define it, but that's not the actual definition enforced, as I said.

The real rule is it means whatever the victim and the administration want it to. And that's not a rule at all. It's an excuse to ban someone.
Joking around between friends is one thing, but trying to cause someone deep personal upset is another.
So everyone who calls you names needs to be banned next? What about everyone you insult by rating them negatively? I just got called a retard by a moderator. Who do I whine to about that?

I realize that what GGS did was dishonorable, and that he is a troll edgelord. But there are not rules against that. And if we want to keep posting in an environment where we don't get banned for simply being rude, as is the case on ResetEra, then we shouldn't want rules against that.

My point has always been that since this is all taking place on this site and there is an ignore feature, you should use that and quit starting problems between the admins and other users.

If GGS were doing then what he's probably going to do now and making accounts through proxies to evade the ignore, I would say that is closer to harassment, but really just spam and bannable as such.
There is a risk of zealous over moderation allowing people to weaponize it, and that is the main reason to not enforce it to quickly and easily. But that isn't what happened here as it is clear to any reasonable person that this crossed the line into harassment.
Harassment isn't being a troll and insulting someone every time you see them. If it was, half the users on this site would be banned. And half the internet would be in jail.

Actual harassment is something I'm familiar with. I've had to deal with an actual stalker. The kind who shows up to where you live, places you go etc. The kind that makes new email accounts and gets new phone numbers just to call you. That's harassment. Insulting someone every time you see them on one website you both happen to be on is not harassment. And it's easily dealt with using the Ignore button.
 

The_Mask

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Oh wow. @Darth Roxor, @Tacgnol, @Jasede, @ropulos... What can I say? You're right. This is sooooooo different from the electric otter of today. What was I thinking?

Look how well-written he was. How grammatically perfect. How much thought, effort and class he put into every post!

Please, tell me Codex: who is the foul doppelganger who stole the form of this erudite philosopher and gentleman? I demand to know!
I'll make a thread called "ElectricOtter's posting style", and by the end of the month, you'll be fine with nuking everyone too.
 

darkpatriot

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So everyone who calls you names needs to be banned next? What about everyone you insult by rating them negatively? I just got called a retard by a moderator. Who do I whine to about that?

I realize that what GGS did was dishonorable, and that he is a troll edgelord. But there are not rules against that. And if we want to keep posting in an environment where we don't get banned for simply being rude, as is the case on ResetEra, then we shouldn't want rules against that.

Have you ever actually read the forum rules? You seem to have a misunderstanding of what they are and how they are applied. Despite the RPGCodex's reputation as a place where people are vicious and insult people saying whatever they want, for a long time the rules have been that there are limits to how far you can go doing that and that the administration will deliver punishment/correction in an arbitrary way.

These are the parts of the rules that are most relevant, but you may want to read the rest as well to avoid a situation where you break them unknowingly and invite moderation attention.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/rules-of-the-codex-enhanced-edition-directors-cut-2013.87048/
4. Don't Get Personal


aka Watch the Harassment
. According to Wikipedia, "Harassment covers a wide range of behaviours of an offensive nature. It is commonly understood as behaviour intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive". It would be difficult to say the Codex has a zero tolerance of harassment as we allow robust debate, during which colourful phrases such as "conservatard" and "biowhore" are thrown about by our users with gleeful abandon.

We also give users colourful tags such as "dumbfuck!"; we have two members who have been awarded the title "undisputed queen of faggotry" and we have used "village idiot" and other labels from time-to-time to identify particularly troublesome users, all of which could be considered a form of harassment.

So you are, within reason, perfectly allowed to call someone a miserable lying shit-cock of a whore, or whatever colourful language you can come up with for them, if that is indeed your opinion of them and their thoughts. Like-wise, The Management™ has the right to give you whatever colourful tag we're able to concoct for whatever reasons we deem appropriate. However, due to a few instances, we are drawing a line in the sand where we feel things have gotten too personal:

4.1. Stalker-ish Behaviour: Behaviour which we're broadly defining as anything remotely involving tracking down someone's location (such as city, town, street address, phone number) or personal info (such as real name or photos, unless disclosed by the poster him- or herself) - or harassing them on other sites such as Facebook or YouTube, especially suggesting doing things to them that would or could be considered criminal. There has been A Real Instance™, police were involved and the Administrators do not appreciate real police rocking up at their real doorsteps to ask about bullshit that happened on an internet forum. It's all fun and games until someone has to go to a Police station to try and explain the Codex. Strangely enough, it has nothing to do with any of the more recent well known stalkery threads and was one that caught us by surprise, go figure. As such, any instances of stalkerish behaviour may result in an entire nuking of the accounts involved and deletion of relevant threads - even if it's just a bad joke. As always, we're much more inclined to nuke if you're just a shit-poster.

4.2. Personal Details: There has been a recent rise in requests for admins to delete threads, usually after some moron has posted personal details about their sex life and only just discovered that the internet is not private - and that with a bit of googling and some basic information, anyone can be found. Where once we would have told you "too bad. Crime can't be undone. And your stupidity can't be either. It is not our job to clean up after you", we are instead drawing a line in the sand here. As such, if you post the real names, images, address or other details of anyone (be they a member of this forum or not) without their permission, we will remove it if it's been requested we do so, or if we think it crosses a line. This includes instances where we have had requests from non-members who have found images and other details of themselves posted on the Codex - in the case of such requests, those details will be removed.

4.3. Shit-posting: From time to time, we get users who, upon review of their posts, it is discovered that they have not really added anything of value to the Codex. Their posts are typically only ever in GD and their few forays into the other forums provide little insight or opinion. It's not surprising to find these users often spend all their time complaining about other users - in many cases following them from thread to thread, rather than debating or discussing actual issues. We define these people as shit-posters and we define their posts as shit-posting.

These users eventually make the mistake of pissing off one of the Moderators with their Shitposting, which leads to said Moderator advising the Administrators, which usually leads to a ban and nuking of all their posts. As a simple rule, if you've gained this much attention and we make a judgement that the Codex would not lose anything by banning you, we will probably ban you. You should note that there are some Moderators who are more than happy to bring these users to the attention of the Administrators on a regular basis and not banning half the forum is an ongoing struggle.

5. This is Our House


I'm a big believer in free speech, even if that means I disagree with 92% of what gets posted on the Codex. While I might disagree with you, I believe you have a right to say it. Even if some people find it out-right offensive. I believe the best way to deal with an issue is through debate. And it's that principle the Codex was founded upon. Don't agree with something someone said? Well, say something about it. Convince them that what they said was wrong / inappropriate / stupid / whatever.

At the end of the day though, if you feel a punishment you've received is not appropriate - that you really did nothing wrong; or that we've failed to act appropriately in dealing with something, please keep this in mind: This is our house, not yours. You are here because The Management™ let you be here. You are allowed to post your crap because The Management™ has a high tolerance for crap. And The Management™ is not easily offended.

But everything has limits. For the most part, you should expect the moderators to follow and enforce these rules but while I will happily argue with you about it until page 57 and beyond, if you are having trouble grasping who's in control here - or you think you have some legal right of appeal; that you can "rule-nazi" your way out of a hole - think again.

The best way to think of the Codex is like a pub. You're free to come in, buy a drink and chat about whatever you like with the other people you find here. As much as possible, we're not going to decide what is or isn't an inappropriate topic to talk about; or an inappropriate subject to joke about - and some of the stuff posted on the Codex is down-right offensive in that regard. But you're not allowed to trash the place, or get into a physical brawl with the other customers. Words are fine. You have rights, but your rights don't over-rule someone elses rights.

And as owners of the pub, we reserve the right to throw your ass out at any time, for whatever reason.

So while that freedom of speech has been tested over the years, as long as you keep a modicum of respect for each other, and keep that shit in the appropriate forum or thread, you generally won't have any trouble from The Management™.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Have you ever actually read the forum rules?
Yes.
You seem to have a misunderstanding of what they are and how they are applied.
I could say the same of you. Nothing in that conflicts with what I've said. Moreover, it proves my point:
4.1. Stalker-ish Behaviour: Behaviour which we're broadly defining as anything remotely involving tracking down someone's location (such as city, town, street address, phone number) or personal info (such as real name or photos, unless disclosed by the poster him- or herself) - or harassing them on other sites such as Facebook or YouTube, especially suggesting doing things to them that would or could be considered criminal. There has been A Real Instance™, police were involved and the Administrators do not appreciate real police rocking up at their real doorsteps to ask about bullshit that happened on an internet forum. It's all fun and games until someone has to go to a Police station to try and explain the Codex. Strangely enough, it has nothing to do with any of the more recent well known stalkery threads and was one that caught us by surprise, go figure. As such, any instances of stalkerish behaviour may result in an entire nuking of the accounts involved and deletion of relevant threads - even if it's just a bad joke. As always, we're much more inclined to nuke if you're just a shit-poster.

4.2. Personal Details: There has been a recent rise in requests for admins to delete threads, usually after some moron has posted personal details about their sex life and only just discovered that the internet is not private - and that with a bit of googling and some basic information, anyone can be found. Where once we would have told you "too bad. Crime can't be undone. And your stupidity can't be either. It is not our job to clean up after you", we are instead drawing a line in the sand here. As such, if you post the real names, images, address or other details of anyone (be they a member of this forum or not) without their permission, we will remove it if it's been requested we do so, or if we think it crosses a line. This includes instances where we have had requests from non-members who have found images and other details of themselves posted on the Codex - in the case of such requests, those details will be removed.
None of that is what GGS did. Information on Atlet's family situation might be "personal", but it isn't an actual personal detail that lets people track down where he lives or who he is, like a name or a photograph.

GGS did "shitpost", but that has nothing to do with harassment. It has to do with:
These users eventually make the mistake of pissing off one of the Moderators with their Shitposting, which leads to said Moderator advising the Administrators, which usually leads to a ban and nuking of all their posts. As a simple rule, if you've gained this much attention and we make a judgement that the Codex would not lose anything by banning you, we will probably ban you. You should note that there are some Moderators who are more than happy to bring these users to the attention of the Administrators on a regular basis and not banning half the forum is an ongoing struggle.
As I said, DU has the right to ban anyone he wants. But for you to call it harassment is bullshit.

I realize you want to play lawyer here, but these aren't laws, and they do more to prove my point than yours. If you're so keen on everyone reading them, maybe read them yourself before copy/pasting them next time.
 

Lord of Riva

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The way the codex defines it and enforces it? The codex definition is kinda vague, but given the extremely lax enforcement I don't think there are really any problems with it being weaponized. I really doubt that anyone would deny there was harassment in this case. It was extremely personal, done with the purpose of upsetting a specific person, done over an extended period of time, was identified as something that was deeply upsetting to the victim, and the perpetrator was asked and then told to knock it off repeatedly. You have to go pretty far to actually draw any kind of punishment for it on the codex.

I'm sure the legal definition for real life harassment is also fairly well-defined in most jurisdictions. Even if the law itself was poorly worded, case law would have better defined it. And as in all cases when there is a subjective judgement in the law, they use some kind of reasonable person standard.

It's an interesting subject for sure, I think there is some discontent exactly because harrasment is allowed, or at least perceived as allowed due to the lax enforcement. And when it suddenly comes to a ban most reasonable posters can not really gauge where the line is drawn.

You point to vague and definitions but I think that is a very american view on the subject, german law for example is designed to be interpreted not clear, just like it's Roman predecessor.
We have a law regarding talking about the dead though : https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/189.html

The idea of hatespeech or Harassment as you would probably define is a pretty new invention, even though I can see that rules like this have been used in the past just if that is a good thing is debatable.

No one ever has to ignore if they don't want to. I'm sorry, I don't really have any sympathy at all for picking on someone in a malicious way. Joking around between friends is one thing, but trying to cause someone deep personal upset is another. Incidental upset due to the sensitive topics being discussed or criticism is also a different thing.

I personally think less of people I see doing it, and I am not in the least bit put off by moderation to curtail it. There is a risk of zealous over moderation allowing people to weaponize it, and that is the main reason to not enforce it too quickly and easily. But that isn't what happened here as it is clear to any reasonable person that this crossed the line into harassment.
Well insulting people happens all the time, there is a reason why I always point to the fact that people are superficially devalued by pointing to their sexuality, "being an incel" is one of the most used terms from what I can gather, especially from the crowd that feels "offended" now.

The issue clearly is that we do not enforce the rules evenly which is the reason for confusion and drama. Either way I would prefer people having a thicker skin rather than strict rules.
 
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4.1. Stalker-ish Behaviour: Behaviour which we're broadly defining as anything remotely involving tracking down someone's location (such as city, town, street address, phone number) or personal info (such as real name or photos, unless disclosed by the poster him- or herself) - or harassing them on other sites such as Facebook or YouTube, especially suggesting doing things to them that would or could be considered criminal. There has been A Real Instance™, police were involved and the Administrators do not appreciate real police rocking up at their real doorsteps to ask about bullshit that happened on an internet forum. It's all fun and games until someone has to go to a Police station to try and explain the Codex. Strangely enough, it has nothing to do with any of the more recent well known stalkery threads and was one that caught us by surprise, go figure. As such, any instances of stalkerish behaviour may result in an entire nuking of the accounts involved and deletion of relevant threads - even if it's just a bad joke. As always, we're much more inclined to nuke if you're just a shit-poster.

One of the things GGS and the loli gang kept going on about was their attempts to track down Atlet's workplace.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/chat/message/329277/view
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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4.1. Stalker-ish Behaviour: Behaviour which we're broadly defining as anything remotely involving tracking down someone's location (such as city, town, street address, phone number) or personal info (such as real name or photos, unless disclosed by the poster him- or herself) - or harassing them on other sites such as Facebook or YouTube, especially suggesting doing things to them that would or could be considered criminal. There has been A Real Instance™, police were involved and the Administrators do not appreciate real police rocking up at their real doorsteps to ask about bullshit that happened on an internet forum. It's all fun and games until someone has to go to a Police station to try and explain the Codex. Strangely enough, it has nothing to do with any of the more recent well known stalkery threads and was one that caught us by surprise, go figure. As such, any instances of stalkerish behaviour may result in an entire nuking of the accounts involved and deletion of relevant threads - even if it's just a bad joke. As always, we're much more inclined to nuke if you're just a shit-poster.

One of the things GGS and the sick child pervert gang kept going on about was their attempts to track down Atlet's workplace.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/chat/message/329277/view
If you look up the actual conversation, he's DOUBTING that Atlet is a lawyer. They weren't trying to find him, they were trying to prove that he wasn't what he claimed to be by NOT finding him.

A moderator was also present for the conversation and Atlet was laughing about it.
 

Zanzoken

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Tarkleigh

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
I don't think it is appropriate to make fun of someones dead relative but I also don't think it is worth going to the admins for, especially if you can just stay out of Shoutbox or add GGS to your ignore list. However, GGS was free to stop at any time and it was beyond foolish of him to ignore the warning Crispy was kind enough to give him. Pissing off DarkUnderlord will get you banned, everyone knows that. It was also justifiable by the rules and GGS was a repeat offender, so I can understand the nuke even though I am all for being careful with the banhammer.

GGS was really asking for it, maybe some kind of suicide by DarkUnderlord kind of thing?
 

Maxie

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I don't think it is appropriate to make fun of someones dead relative but I also don't think it is worth going to the admins for, especially if you can just stay out of Shoutbox or add GGS to your ignore list. However, GGS was free to stop at any time and it was beyond foolish of him to ignore the warning Crispy was kind enough to give him. Pissing off DarkUnderlord will get you banned, everyone knows that. It was also justifiable by the rules and GGS was a repeat offender, so I can understand the nuke even though I am all for being careful with the banhammer.

GGS was really asking for it, maybe some kind of suicide by DarkUnderlord kind of thing?
what suicide he's just made a new acc called atlets rotten brother
 

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