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Decline Why do MMOs suck so much?

anvi

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It also changes based on what you do. So if you go out and slaughter a bunch of goblins, then there might be some goblins friendly merchants who now hate you or would even attack you on sight. And you can usually fix relations by killing their enemies or doing quests. It felt like a real world, not a game, that's a big thing about EQ. You can press the wrong key and attack a merchant or quest giver or guard or whatever. You can get lost, wander in the wrong direction and end up in the middle of nowhere. Or somewhere dangerous. Or you come across a town with shops and you go inside and they all murder you because you are a different race or whatever. It was made to be like a fantasy world that you have to survive in.

The later MMOs are all designed like 'games' instead, you can't attack NPCs by mistake, there is nowhere to get lost, you go from A to B to C in a finely tuned progression of newbie area to mid level area, to high level area, etc. Every town is friendly, every town has an auction house etc, everywhere you go is 5 minutes from a town, everyone can teleport back to town, etc. They are such a different experience. And the gameplay and other stuff is very different too.
 

anvi

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Also when he talks about, "Nobody has ever really done awesome PVE where anyone cares about what you loot," that was what EQ was all about! And he missed it all, the entire massive history with 26 years and 26 expansions or whatever it has, that whole history is missing from his MMO history and future.
It's amazing how few people -- especially those designing MMOs now it seems -- have never even played EQ. You can go play for free right now, both the live version and the original game on P99. It's like discussing western fantasy with someone who decided to skip over Tolkien's works and read the derivative works instead.
Also when he was talking about it not being massive enough. EQ had bigger raids than WoW does, the tech got better yet the numbers went down. But more people doesn't necessarily make it better or more fun anyway. I killed a dragon with 100 people, it was a lot less fun than a really great dungeon I did one time with 5 other people. More numbers doesn't automatically make it more fun.
I personally never thought the raids in EQ(or even WoW which were much more detailed, I raided up to Sunwell in TBC) were very interesting. I enjoyed EQ's world.
MMOs focusing on only one activity is completely wrong and a misunderstanding of the genre.


SWG is another example of a game designers should be studying. That game was years ahead of its time, it would be a smash hit right now.
Exactly, and there are not even many MMOs so it is stupid for companies to be ignoring a big important one in the history. There were some really interesting little indie MMOs too which later games could learn from, like one of them let you multiclass and had mod tools for the players to submit content to the devs and stuff. An idea never seen again in MMOs... I guess EQ Next tried to take all this to the logical conclusion and it bankrupted them. But yes it is annoying they don't learn from all these games. I think EQ especially because it was made with such a tiny budget and low tech. But they achieved so much. The same approach today but with the much better development tools now, must be able to make something amazing.

The raiding is funny because it was obviously such an afterthought. You had this massive game with 100 amazing group dungeons or something and it took a year get through all that content, and then at the end there were just 2 janky dragons. And if you struggled to kill them with 40 something people then you could just get 80 or 100+ people and outnumber it to death. Yet somehow this is the thing that grew to dominate MMOs. It got better with more interactive raids and better encounters and stuff, I had fun on some raids in some games. But it still feels like they are just elaborating on an idea that was an afterthought to begin with. I think sieging and conquest of regions with huge battles does seem more fun to me than just 50 people killing some giant polygon monster. I think PVP spices it up a lot too. DAOC teaches a lot too. I loved WoW's Battlegrounds too. But there were not that many of them and it was more like a mini game in the main game. I'd like to see that developed into something bigger. That would probably make more sense for MMOs. I may prefer just doing dungeons with a group, like EQ was great at, but maybe that is better suited to online co-op RPGs instead of trying to turn it into an MMO.
 

anvi

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Ultima Online sort of had permadeath. If you decide to kill other players, you can die and it makes you lose so much of your progression that it was like starting again, so most people would just start a new character and have a new adventure. Wizardry Online had permadeath too in some way. I played it for a while but it was just so janky.

Vanguard was so RP friendly that I knew someone who self imposed permadeath. If she died, she deleted the character and started a new one. At first I thought she was nuts but the game was good enough that if you play carefully, you should be able to avoid death. And it becomes so intense and more survival-ish, so I guess it can be fun. And she ended up knowing every class up to level 20 ish really well.
 

Norfleet

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GEQ had bigger raids than WoW does, the tech got better yet the numbers went down. But more people doesn't necessarily make it better or more fun anyway. I killed a dragon with 100 people, it was a lot less fun than a really great dungeon I did one time with 5 other people. More numbers doesn't automatically make it more fun.
I would argue that the tech "getting better" *IS* what drives the numbers down. As the graphics grow shinier and shinier and you stack more and more unwieldy computationally-intensive mechanics on top of things, the number of people who can safely fit in the area drops sharply.

Compare: Netrek, technology of 1970, capable of hosting a 16-man 8v8 battle as the standard format, vs. Star Trek Online, technolergy of 2010, that received upgrades to at least circa-2015 tech, and struggles when merely 5 players are present.

Subspace, technolergy of 1995, can host 100-man FFA instances that can be played on 14.4kbps connection. A modern equivalent like Fortnight devours like 3mbps.

More tech doesn't seem to make a bigger, better game, and may actually result in a worse game.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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I tend to enjoy the background music and terrain + effects in some games more than others. What annoys me is backrounds that can't be explored. Oh a door! Nope! Its just background.

When I toyed around with PWI back in 2006-8. I recall you couldn't drown (dunno if that's still so or if the landmass changed). I explored the hell out of the oceans even before they added that island psion class. Lvl 1 chilling at the bottom of the darkest oceans in a whirlpool.

Aion had a broken section in starting Poeta where you could climb the peaks or stay submerged in the creek/stream in the unaccessible place. Shit, i got stuck there and barely managed to reset/recall out because it kept failing.

Wyvern, on dialup, Ijust enjoyed since it seemed like ACS online but more advanced. Now its changed and on mobile I guess.
 
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anvi

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I hunted some mermaids underwater in EQ, and my character sucked at swimming when I started. But he got fast after hunting there for ages. It was so relaxing to chill underwater, with a breathing item at least. I loved the sound effects and stuff, there was even a whole underwater dungeon. Some games there is no water, or they have water but no breath. Even bigger games like The Secret World, there was no falling damage in that game. So strange jumping off a cliff and you keep running like it is nothing. There are some games where you can't even jump, I hate that, it is like being on rails, and same goes for not being able to fall off stuff. Like if there is a pier or something they have an invisible wall to stop you falling off.

That's another thing about EQ that was cool, it was developed in all these ways. You could run, jump, crouch, to get in tighter places. You got injured and could die from falling, you could drown, etc. And you can fall off anything. It even has thirst and hunger. They are all kinda basic things but if it doesn't have them, it is probably gonna feel like a cheap mobile RPG to a lot of people.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
I remember being in Rivervale(EQ hobbit town) for the first time with my barbarian shaman -- a large race -- and the only way I could travel through the houses was by crouching and slowly crawling. Small(heh) things like that add a lot to the world.
 

Mortmal

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I remember being in Rivervale(EQ hobbit town) for the first time with my barbarian shaman -- a large race -- and the only way I could travel through the houses was by crouching and slowly crawling. Small(heh) things like that add a lot to the world.
You had to crouch ? you lucky lucky guy, as a drow i was shot on sight.
 

Brujoloco

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I remember being in Rivervale(EQ hobbit town) for the first time with my barbarian shaman -- a large race -- and the only way I could travel through the houses was by crouching and slowly crawling. Small(heh) things like that add a lot to the world.

I remember the first time as a Necro fresh out of Qeynos and thinking myself badass I decided to hail the Necromancer that walked Qeynos hills as he conned to me as amiably, only to discover that NPC reacts VERY BADLY TO PEOPLE hailing him regardless of faction.

He smote me with a line of "HOW DARE YOU EVEN TALK TO ME" ...

It was burned forever in my mind ... They dont make MMOs like that anymore :bounce:
 

Brujoloco

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I remember being in Rivervale(EQ hobbit town) for the first time with my barbarian shaman -- a large race -- and the only way I could travel through the houses was by crouching and slowly crawling. Small(heh) things like that add a lot to the world.
You had to crouch ? you lucky lucky guy, as a drow i was shot on sight.

Ahhh glad to see old EQ vets here, dont feel so alone in this strange place :)

Back in the day my friend , a dark elf warrior (yeah I know) , had to call me to my house using a landline begging for me to log in my Necro only to help him get out of Najena.

He managed to lose his corpse in a very bad spot (there was some illusory floor trap that dropped you right on top of static mobs). He was literally on the verge of tears, he had died so many times and I had summon corpse available and no one was around to help him.

He lost a whole level, his corpse with his meager possesions and was truly frustrated. I woke up (it was about 4 AM) logged in and traveled to Najena via Druid and arrived like 30 minutes later to help him out as I had to walk everywhere to find a kind druid to port me over to the Commons.

It was truly nasty back in the day when you think about it specially for some classes that were like Ultra Hardcore Nightmare Mode, mostly warriors and rogues.
 

Ninjerk

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I went to Highpass Hold at the recommendation of a friend to grind out levels against the orcs there on my ranger. The wonder of it being such a dangerous world made the track ability really feel like a worthwhile time investment to level up. On my way up the cliffside I saw a werewolf on my track list. I think you can con things even if they're not drawn on your screen and if I've remembered that correctly then I must have been thinking about the corpse run I'd have to make from Qeynos back to whichever Karanas zone touches the zone the Hold is in (I think E. Karanas). I think I was able to find a little structure on the path to duck into before he passed me and I managed to get in without ever having actually seen the werewolf. What a game.
 

anvi

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I started a progression server so... Here's another thought that came to mind.

There is sorta friendly fire in this game, it might be made in the 90s but the complexity is great. Most spell casters target the enemy and use a spell on it, but a few classes can use rain spells where you target something and fire or magic or whatever will rain on that area in 3 waves. It hits the player themselves and can kill them, and it hits any enemies, including ones that were supposed to be put to sleep by your team. So you can wake them up and they will then aggro you or the guy who slept them and maybe cause your group to all die. So most people don't use rains... You can kill yourself if you are not far enough away, or if the thing you target with the rain, then runs at you... it is scary. Many newbie Wizard has died that way. And often with a group, someone is mezzing stuff, so waking things is deadly too. But the mana/time efficiency of the waves of damage are so strong, if you play as a duo or a group that has a plan and can work with it, then it is awesome.

People being able to kill themselves with magic is something that vanished from MMOs, which is sad. Also waking mesmerized targets should come back. I was so disappointed with WoW and later games when they did the turn into a sheep thing. In EQ you put the enemy to sleep and any damage at all will wake it. So I used to get in trouble with my Necromancer, I was so uber efficient, I sometimes would cast slow but long lasting poisons on a group of enemies as they are approaching the group. The group piles in and ganks them one by one, and while they get to the 3rd or 4th enemy, it is mostly already dead thanks to me. But if someone is sleeping targets then I can't do this or it could kill us all. (They sleep an enemy, a second later it is woken by my poison and it is super pissed at me or the guy who slept it and kills them, and sleep wont work and the tank is expecting it to be asleep)

Same goes for rains, and other area spells. Often tanks or melees or someone would throw a few attacks at targets before they find the target everyone is focusing on. It always helps to do bits of damage and if you are tanking then your hits are creating aggro which is good. But this would wake mezzed mobs often too, and could kill everyone. So the game forced people to play in a slick way. Everyone learned that you had to all assist one person. I remember being in a life and death battle and the group were already fighting like 5 enemies, and me and the Enchanter were at the side and had another big enemy to deal with. It was fighting my pet which is why me and the Ench weren't already dead, but the pet isn't capable of tanking it. So I see he starts casting his mez spell and his character turns to look at me. If I didn't do anything his mez would land, my pet would instantly wake it up and the mob would change targets to kill the Enchanter for trying to mez it. That would be really bad. And that's usually what would happen. But I played a lotttt and I knew the guy and I saw him turn to me too which I will always remember :) I just wait a second and then spam my "pet back off" button before the spell lands, and we are safe.

But this kind of tense interaction between real people, in real time, quick intense decisions and stuff... On the internet, in the 1990s, that is so amazing to me. It shows how gameplay is king and even with the low tech, it still gave plenty of room for great gameplay. Now the tech is so much better but the gameplay has degenerated.
 
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anvi

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Here's some more.

Spells can fail in 3 ways. Resisted, fizzle (use half the mana and it fails to cast), or interrupted if you are hit significantly or moved during the casting time. Like AD&D there is a concentration skill to help cast through hits.

Once a mob spots you, it will fight to the death. If it is miles away and spots your pet or something, even if you cast fear on it and then run miles away, it will eventually find you and attack. Leaving to another area is the only way, or killing it, or putting it to sleep and memory wiping it, etc. But point is the relentlessness of them made it interesting. There was no leashing, they chase you across a whole region. Also there is "social aggro" so if an enemy is chasing you and it runs past one if its allies, the ally will join in the chase. Even other races and species may help each other. And if some scary creature chases someone and they leave the area, that scary creature will attack anyone else it sees on the way back home.

Also enemies fleeing is a big deal. On low health, most enemies will turn and run away. And if they run near any allies, they will help it. Other enemies will heal your target too, and your fleeing enemy can run far and wide, getting potentially hundreds of allies who will then come and kill you. It happens all the time, and it is all caused by a single enemy fleeing, which can be prevented with an ensnaring spell (or a stun or whatever). But people have to be awake and remember to snare every enemy or it could kill you all.

Pets are awesome and can tank for you, even in a group in some cases, and you have control over it, stop attacking this, attack this instead, dont attack, etc. So they aren't just additional damage, they are like another character and you can buff them and give them items too. The Magician has 4 different types to choose from as well, each useful for different situations.

The AI is really advanced, even by today's standards. The enemies are making lots of decisions every second. Any spell you cast can cause the enemy to leave the tank and come and kill you instead. And aggro is absolute, so say you cast a long lasting heal on the tank and then you run 100 meters away and the group are fighting the enemy. Then you sit down to rest... the enemy might be so pissed off at this, that it runs 100m with a group chasing it and shooting it with everything they have, but it is determined to get you. And if you just stand up, it might stop coming for you and go back to fighting someone else. It also does all this based on the distance. So if someone does a bit too much damage or something, the enemy will want to change target from the tank and go kill this other guy instead. But if that guy is standing just an extra few feet away, the enemy will decide it isn't worth trying to run all that far with the group attacking it. But if he moves a few inches closer, the enemy will go for him. It basically makes everything you fight feel sort of smart and lifelike.
 
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i tried tera. dude, you deserve your tag.
What's wrong with it! Describe. I am still playing it, Sorcerer is fun as hell. I am close to PVP level and then I'll see how long I'll play. The PVE is pretty bad.
animu graphics
quests are just 'talk to person, kill one thing, then walk really far'
worse than "animu graphics", it's "horrible, retarded, nonsensical graphics". every dude has a head smaller than his knee and hands as big as shovels. and even if some attempt have been made to try to mask it, combat is still the usual stiff fare "stand still and push buttons", the engine can't support anything different. i have skipped all the text from the tutorial, never felt the need to read it, never felt i missed something. wasted time, lots of wasted time. "you need to travel? let me first move veeeeeeeery sloooooooooow around this island. twice." is not acceptable. it might have been 20 years ago. even then it wasn't to me. character progress is linearity itself, as if guild wars never existed. hell, as if *diablo* never existed. mobs? "let me charge you and spam slow attacks in your face", as if guild wars never existed. hell, as if *diablo* never existed.
even diablo 3 entertained me longer than this.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
i tried tera. dude, you deserve your tag.
What's wrong with it! Describe. I am still playing it, Sorcerer is fun as hell. I am close to PVP level and then I'll see how long I'll play. The PVE is pretty bad.
animu graphics
quests are just 'talk to person, kill one thing, then walk really far'
worse than "animu graphics", it's "horrible, retarded, nonsensical graphics". every dude has a head smaller than his knee and hands as big as shovels. and even if some attempt have been made to try to mask it, combat is still the usual stiff fare "stand still and push buttons", the engine can't support anything different. i have skipped all the text from the tutorial, never felt the need to read it, never felt i missed something. wasted time, lots of wasted time. "you need to travel? let me first move veeeeeeeery sloooooooooow around this island. twice." is not acceptable. it might have been 20 years ago. even then it wasn't to me. character progress is linearity itself, as if guild wars never existed. hell, as if *diablo* never existed. mobs? "let me charge you and spam slow attacks in your face", as if guild wars never existed. hell, as if *diablo* never existed.
even diablo 3 entertained me longer than this.
yep it's an asian mmo alright
 

anvi

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i tried tera. dude, you deserve your tag.
What's wrong with it! Describe. I am still playing it, Sorcerer is fun as hell. I am close to PVP level and then I'll see how long I'll play. The PVE is pretty bad.
animu graphics
quests are just 'talk to person, kill one thing, then walk really far'
Yeah sucks. But to me it is mostly like every other MMO since 2004. The combat is cool though, and I wanna see the PVP.

I'm also playing EVE which is cool but only just.
 

anvi

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Tera seems better in the higher levels. And apparently there is some way to go from start to max level in 2 hours.... Why they make people go through 69 levels of crap, I'm not sure. But it is getting better anyway, and I can try pvp now.
 

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