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Decline Why do MMOs suck so much?

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
2,582
Location
The Centre of the World
playing an mmo is like paying someone so you can work a second job
It's the non-German version of coming home from your job of driving a forklift so you can play Forklift Simulator 2019.
bold of you to assume i have a job

and that i pay for games
 

WhiteShark

Learned
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
370
Location
滅びてゆく世界
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
Lol. This has got to be indirectly pointed at codexers. I mean, ya'll say just about EVERYTHING SUCKS.


I seriously cannot stand wank like this.
For one he is babbling like a 6 year old struggling to explain why he likes the red gummy bears more than the green ones. He presents obvious general truisms like "negativity spreads faster and easier" or "nostalgia blinds you to the current state of things" which are... well true but also entirely irrelevant to the point he is trying to make. Its just series of not false statements that do not connect to form anything coherent. Its quantitative thinking at its finest. The guy is essentially presenting a large volumes of first year psychology wankery in hopes that by virtue of quoting a lot of it, it will somehow form his points for him. Without even realizing that most of what he says directly undermines his own position.
Its as if you asked me why did I put sardines on the pizza and I, instead of admitting that I ran out of sausage and pepperoni. would start spinning some nonsense about the importance of a balanced diet that should mostly consists of fresh foods in a ration of 70:30 to processed foods.

Second by virtue of even making a video like this the guy is essentially implying that nothing has actually changes in the last 20 years. The games are the same, the people are the same, the prices are the same, the content is the same... its all the same, its just me and a couple of faggots who grew up to be grumpy old shits at the ripe age of 20 something and are now just spreading their made up negativity around the globe. For no real reason at all.

:prosper:

I hate this philistine too. His "why do hardcore PVp MMOs always fail" video reeks of disingeniousness. The real reason is they are niche, marketed poorly, and expect greater returns then they actually get. The actual gameplay behind them is sound or Eve Online wouldn't be successful. And this idiot probably wasn't even old enough to remember PKers from UO. In a sandbox MMO you live and die by COMMUNITY. The community starts a lynch mob to fuck with the one PKer who keeps aggravating everyone and trolling newbies. If they don't you don't get new players and the game dies. Nowadays however all these WoW players have gotten used to whining to a GM when things don't go their way. Getting people banned or even messing up balance on things. There's no sense of consequence to the actions you take in an MMO anymore.
 

Reever

Scholar
Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
534
Jinx? Why does this style scream WOKE!
UydcRbg.jpg

wQPoGi8.png


I'm seeing this style all over. Dykes, Trannies, etc.. I have a few nieces going this route. WTF? Is that a dude? A chick? An IT?

cOB4Qmz.jpg
She was released quite a long time ago (almost a decade I think) so I'm assuming she was made more to appeal to the LOLSORANDUM Tumblr fad rather than the current woke one. Though I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between them
Here's her trailer if you can stomach watching it.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,476
Location
Frostfell
Lol. This has got to be indirectly pointed at codexers. I mean, ya'll say just about EVERYTHING SUCKS.


I seriously cannot stand wank like this.
For one he is babbling like a 6 year old struggling to explain why he likes the red gummy bears more than the green ones. He presents obvious general truisms like "negativity spreads faster and easier" or "nostalgia blinds you to the current state of things" which are... well true but also entirely irrelevant to the point he is trying to make. Its just series of not false statements that do not connect to form anything coherent. Its quantitative thinking at its finest. The guy is essentially presenting a large volumes of first year psychology wankery in hopes that by virtue of quoting a lot of it, it will somehow form his points for him. Without even realizing that most of what he says directly undermines his own position.
Its as if you asked me why did I put sardines on the pizza and I, instead of admitting that I ran out of sausage and pepperoni. would start spinning some nonsense about the importance of a balanced diet that should mostly consists of fresh foods in a ration of 70:30 to processed foods.

Second by virtue of even making a video like this the guy is essentially implying that nothing has actually changes in the last 20 years. The games are the same, the people are the same, the prices are the same, the content is the same... its all the same, its just me and a couple of faggots who grew up to be grumpy old shits at the ripe age of 20 something and are now just spreading their made up negativity around the globe. For no real reason at all.

:prosper:

I hate this philistine too. His "why do hardcore PVp MMOs always fail" video reeks of disingeniousness. The real reason is they are niche, marketed poorly, and expect greater returns then they actually get. The actual gameplay behind them is sound or Eve Online wouldn't be successful. And this idiot probably wasn't even old enough to remember PKers from UO. In a sandbox MMO you live and die by COMMUNITY. The community starts a lynch mob to fuck with the one PKer who keeps aggravating everyone and trolling newbies. If they don't you don't get new players and the game dies. Nowadays however all these WoW players have gotten used to whining to a GM when things don't go their way. Getting people banned or even messing up balance on things. There's no sense of consequence to the actions you take in an MMO anymore.



What he talked about hardcore pvp games, he also has the mindset that you have high gear dependency and high difficulty to gear in this games, which is not the case. You don't have much gear dependency in games like Ultima Online. Losing your gear in UO is not like losing your gear in WoW. You are not what you wear in UO. Sure, losing a gear which gives 100% reagent reduction is a problem, but is not as if you can't do anything now because you lost your gear.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,874
So Jinx is kind of a Tank Girl x Harlequin type character (maybe a few other femme fatales?). That one character pic I posted from another retarded game is surely based off of Jinx (shark chick with minigun coming from her crotch).
 

Caim

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
15,468
Location
Dutchland
So Jinx is kind of a Tank Girl x Harlequin type character (maybe a few other femme fatales?). That one character pic I posted from another retarded game is surely based off of Jinx (shark chick with minigun coming from her crotch).
Yeah, but a bit less Tank Girl and a bit more Harley Quinn. Sure she might appear somewhat enticing, but her appeal goes about as deep as the thin fabric of her clothing. Without the looks she's the most baseline product of "empowered sexuality" you can make. A Visual Basic Bich, if you will.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Playing ffxiv and healers being dps who happen to heal and tanks being dps who happen to tank was probably one of the worst experiences I've had in MMOs lately, but ultimately a logical conclusion. There is no archetype or role left in MMORPGs, everything has been reduced to "more deeps!!"
First they came for the support classes, then the hybrids, then the healers, then the tanks. Why bother with difficult things like "balancing" or "class design" when everyone can just be a DPS using identical abilities with different animations and colored effects?
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,927
"Holy Trinity" is the worst fucking design paradigm ever conceived. It has led to nothing but braindead, passive gameplay.
 
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Caim

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
15,468
Location
Dutchland
Playing ffxiv and healers being dps who happen to heal and tanks being dps who happen to tank was probably one of the worst experiences I've had in MMOs lately, but ultimately a logical conclusion. There is no archetype or role left in MMORPGs, everything has been reduced to "more deeps!!"
First they came for the support classes, then the hybrids, then the healers, then the tanks. Why bother with difficult things like "balancing" or "class design" when everyone can just be a DPS using identical abilities with different animations and colored effects?
Aren't there some rather old MMOs where raids weren't instanced and you could just roll up with a very large number of people to slap bosses down in no time? Or were raid sizes limited to prevent this?

Is DDO/UO the unique mmos which are more than "gear farming, cooldown managing" boredom?
Runescape has over two dozen skills for you to grind your teeth down on.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Kelethin
I don't think the Holy Trinity thing was intentional. RPGs long before MMOs have always had 3 key roles, the fighter, the healer, the rogue. I always figured that's what the holy trinity was? Originally? Tank, healer, damage.

The first time I ever saw people talk about it was in EverQuest, but in that game it meant something else. In that game it was just a balance problem of 3 classes being key to the whole game and if you picked one of the other classes in those roles, nobody really wanted you. But balance was way down the list in those days, at least in that game.

By the time WoW came along, everyone knew how this should be done. And most of the later MMOs did a much better job of balancing the classes. They split the classes into 3 'archetypes', and make sure that each class gets a batch of abilities that are essential to that role. So all tanks got taunts, all healers could take care of a group and rez people, all damage or control were more equal.

But some games do an awesome job of this. And some games just balance the shit out of everything so that the classes are mostly the same just with different colored spells.


Is DDO/UO the unique mmos which are more than "gear farming, cooldown managing" boredom?
DDO came out in 2006 so is a post-WoW game. UO is from the 90s, and EverQuest. DAOC was after UO and EQ but before WoW. Basically WoW and beyond is cooldowns and farming. The earlier games were about getting gear too but it was a quite different process.
 
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Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,476
Location
Frostfell
Anvi, the holy trinity is a huge decline. People now see clerics as healers and wizards as aoe dps. When a cleric should be the agent of his/her deity in the material plane. A cleric of Myrkul, of Tyr and of Talos should be completely different. And Magic Users, a Necromancer, a Illusionist and a Abjurer should be completely different depending on the spells which they learned.

Other huge decline brought by mmos is having casting more depending on weapons instead of books, tomes and scrolls.]

What I really liked about DDO Pale Master is that you can self heal, reanimate party members as undeads and use OHK spells. You are not only a "dps"
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,514
The problem with the "holy trinity" is that as meredoth pointed out is the fact that it went from a guideline to a straight jacket. The actual implementation of the idea just segmented classes into certain "roles" regardless of the class design which in the end made everything more understandable but also way more boring.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
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Kelethin
Yeah but that's bad class design. Most later MMOs went boring and bland like that. The earlier MMOs were miles better and had Necromancers and stuff with unique gameplay.

With later MMOs they design the classes to fit archetypes. So all tanks get evasion and taunts, all healers get heals and rez, etc. It is much better for balance because everyone gets a chance to get a group and be able to contribute. But the downside is you now seem less like a unique class and more like just a generic healer/tank/damage.

EQ was like the opposite but the pros and cons are just flipped. So in EQ you felt very unique, people might even remember your name because they don't see an Enchanter or Necromancer or whatever very often. But the downside is you had quite specific uses and couldn't always be that helpful. In a group for example, the Necro could kill things fine. But a Wizard or Druid can kill things even easier and they also get a spell that teleports the whole group to safety if things go wrong. It saves hours of hassle! So Necromancers had a hard time finding groups, people would rather take a Wizard or Druid. But then people would go to a dungeon after rejecting you, and then a while later they would all die down there because the Wizard was late with teleport or whatever. And now they come begging the Necromancer to recover the corpses.

So basically both ways have pros and cons. EQ was un-balanced and had some over powered classes and some that got left out in the cold. But you at least felt unique and it had so much flavor. Later games are over engineered to be more balanced but a lot more bland.

But there is hope! I've seen a game that did a great job of balancing this stuff. It is just so rare that the right devs get the right budget.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
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Frostfell
Instead of making everyone the same, why not give cool abilities to less popular classes, for example, why not give to EQ necromancers(which you said that aren't popular) spells like Finger of Death from D&D? And wailf of the banshee? Ability to revive allies as undeads really nasty curses debuffing enemies and so on.

In DDO, Pale Masters was incredible weak. After a rework they become excellent and still vastly different than the "aoe dps" like a fire savant sorcerer is. Here is a screenshot of my necromancer in DDO I mixed Eldritch Knight which is often associated with "tanking" with "pale master" which would be a DPS in other mmo but in reality is a OHK DC based caster and created a pretty powerful character.

kwhFfUI.png


  • Almost 80 PRR and 60 AC(about 40% in lv 23)
  • Capacity to self heal and heal my skeleton pet which dishes a bit less than 100 damage per attack
  • Auras which lasts long minutes and heal myself and friendly undeads by a lot. Mainly when it crits.
  • Ability to revive fallen allies as undeads, which means that I can heal then.
  • Ability to dispel the immunity from negative energy from undeads
  • A lot of save or die spells and Power Word : Kill which insta slay creatures with no save and the hp limit only applies on PvP. If you pierced the enemy SR and he lacks protection from OHK spells, he is dead.
  • Constructs? Just use metamagic in your tier 9 spells. Yes, you can cast maximized empowered meteor swarm.
  • Dual death auras healing myself for hundreds of hit points every few seconds.
  • A skeleton pet which is akin to a fighter hireling of the same level
  • If I ran out of spells, I can attack on melee and deal a bit of damage(not much but combined with my pet, is not as if I am worthless without magic)
  • Abilities which toggle when I lose 50% of my hp. A arcane barrier reducing all damage by 25% and discorporation reducing the damage by further 50%(except Untyped/Bane) and also giving Incorporeality.
  • Powerful SLA like necrotic blast which costs almost no mana and you can empower/maximize/intensify for free.
The downside of the build? Some NPC's cast sunburst on you and you as a vampire die instantly. Deathblock can't protect you.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
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Messages
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Kelethin
That's the best way for sure. And that's exactly what EQ did :D The Necro had a lot of that stuff from the start, and then they add whatever classes need.

But it's a constant balancing process because other things in the game (like new enemies and new gear) change the balance of the classes. And then when they tweak a class, sometimes other classes need to tweak to keep up too.

EQ had major a problem with adding improvements to a class, because it made the earlier content in the game too easy. In a single player game they would just go back over the earlier content and tweak it to be fun with the new class changes. But MMOs are so big, there is too much earlier content to go back and tweak, so they don't do it. And most of the players are high level, so they only care about more high level content, and more tough enemies to try their new uber abilities on. The earlier parts of the game gets neglected. And now as new players try the game they think it is easy and boring and sucks. It stops the games growing.

But devs do learn from all these things. Pantheon Rise of the Fallen now has as a major goal early in the development. They plan to make progression more horizontal, and new content and expansions will be less destructive to the original world. It's just a shame it took 22 years to get here and there is still so much more for these games to evolve into.
 

willkydd

Novice
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
8
The problem with MMO's is that they are *massively* multiplayer, meaning you get to play with lots of people. As it happens most people have various disgusting flaws and when you *combine* them in one place they even bring out the worst in each other. It's kinda like asking why public bathrooms aren't as nice as private ones.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
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Messages
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Kelethin
I agree. But you can completely shape how people play with game mechanics. MOBAs have the most horrible toxic player base. But they are free to play games so you can troll as much as you want, and if you get banned you make a new account.

The other extreme would be EverQuest. They called it massive but you only ever played with about 1500 people on your own server, so people got to know each other and would see the same names hanging around. And it took a year or more to get a good character, so if you got banned in that game you were totally screwed. Also guild reputation mattered. Also you were paying monthly.
 

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