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Decline Why do MMOs suck so much?

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
I played UO at the start, and Dark Age of Camelot, and WoW at the beginning.

Initially with UO and DAoC, there was an air of mystery. You had to ask other players on how to do things, or have friends in real life to tell you where to go. You also had to form informal bands and find methods of speaking to the other players (phone calls or messaging.) UO allowed you to do anything, and it was up to you to figure out what was useful and what wasn't. Actually, it was ingenious. The fun was in learning things and discovering mysteries. There were runes in Britannia in some areas, and I always wondered if there was something to them...

WoW launched with the same air of mystery. There were literally millions of people all playing at the same time, servers were clogged, and people started the game taking random crafting or other skills. Then we all leveled to 60 and found the dungeons we liked best, we participated in events, and ganked. There wasn't as much mystery, but there were lots of ways to get an edge and unique builds for each class. So, you could really get specific in your build, but the age of "the one ultimate build" wasn't upon us.

Fast forward to now. Everyone googles everything about a game, folks play with maps open or mods, they look for drops by researching their chars, they ignore the scenery and go directly to the next power-up. Every class has a specific build that others want. There are players playing 10+ hours a day, sites with every bit of detailed information, and volumes of information on every subject on a game.

Imagine playing D&D in the 80's or so. The DM is setting up the table, and one of the players pulls out tonights module and reads it before the DM starts then directs everyone what to do, what is behind each door, where each trap is, where the key to the next level is. To some, they want to finish the module and get the loot... the rest of us, well, the fun is in finding out what is around the corner. Unfortunately, EVERY MMO is the party with that one guy.

There was a small window where MMOs could fulfill the tabletop experience but that day is past. The internet (and Day 1 game guides) killed it. If folks think the problem with MMOs is being locked into a specific class, well, you are high. There is too much information out there on games at release that nobody is in the dark unless they choose to be.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Imagine playing D&D in the 80's or so. The DM is setting up the table, and one of the players pulls out tonights module and reads it before the DM starts then directs everyone what to do, what is behind each door, where each trap is, where the key to the next level is.
As the DM, though, those players are so easy to troll. You let them think they're got it all figured out, then you spring the surprise buttsex on them by changing it up.

To some, they want to finish the module and get the loot... the rest of us, well, the fun is in finding out what is around the corner.
FUN IS A FILTHY PARASITE. WORK MAKES YOU FREE. We play MMOs, not because they are fun, but because they are work.

Unfortunately, EVERY MMO is the party with that one guy.
Counter-example: Imagine going to work, except that all of your co-workers are utterly incompetent morons. They don't know how to do their jobs, they're aggressively hostile to the notion that there's a correct way to do their jobs, and yet their jobs are so simple a 6 year old can do them, and I know this because I replaced all of them with 6 year olds. Every MMO party is going to be majority these people.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
As the DM, though, those players are so easy to troll. You let them think they're got it all figured out, then you spring the surprise buttsex on them by changing it up.
A real live DM can do something. The MMO module is fixed. We all know who is around the corner, where the boss is, the likely % of drop, etc.

FUN IS A FILTHY PARASITE. WORK MAKES YOU FREE. We play MMOs, not because they are fun, but because they are work.
Well, there you go.

Counter-example: Imagine going to work, except that all of your co-workers are utterly incompetent morons. They don't know how to do their jobs, they're aggressively hostile to the notion that there's a correct way to do their jobs, and yet their jobs are so simple a 6 year old can do them, and I know this because I replaced all of them with 6 year olds. Every MMO party is going to be majority these people.
Sounds like you are arguing that more folks should have done their research. I still remember the "Safety Dance Boss" in WoW. We'd get there with 25 players and... 10 would be dead in 30 seconds. Every time. BUT it was still fun. That fight would be no fun with everyone knowing the outcome and how to do it.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
BUT it was still fun. That fight would be no fun with everyone knowing the outcome and how to do it.
EXACTLY! And that is the best part, taking things out like a well-oiled commando team machine, to the point where the random sod who got dragged along for the ride because he managed to sneak in due to the matchmaking system glitches out thinks you are robots, all without having any fun at all.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,873
I’ve never played WOW. I guess it’s still a mystery to me. Damn, I haven’t played a lot of the mmos. The ones I did play had good scenery at the time.
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,706
Location
Wisconsin
Codex Year of the Donut
BUT it was still fun. That fight would be no fun with everyone knowing the outcome and how to do it.
EXACTLY! And that is the best part, taking things out like a well-oiled commando team machine, to the point where the random sod who got dragged along for the ride because he managed to sneak in due to the matchmaking system glitches out thinks you are robots, all without having any fun at all.
On the behalf of the random sod who got dragged along because he was a semi-capable healer, Ok, I understand.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,952
Imagine playing D&D in the 80's or so. The DM is setting up the table, and one of the players pulls out tonights module and reads it before the DM starts then directs everyone what to do, what is behind each door, where each trap is, where the key to the next level is. To some, they want to finish the module and get the loot... the rest of us, well, the fun is in finding out what is around the corner. Unfortunately, EVERY MMO is the party with that one guy.

There was a small window where MMOs could fulfill the tabletop experience but that day is past. The internet (and Day 1 game guides) killed it. If folks think the problem with MMOs is being locked into a specific class, well, you are high. There is too much information out there on games at release that nobody is in the dark unless they choose to be.

Culture changed around them.

It's why I say any old style MMO will fail, because the population of people with that old mentality are now tiny.

BUT it was still fun. That fight would be no fun with everyone knowing the outcome and how to do it.
EXACTLY! And that is the best part, taking things out like a well-oiled commando team machine, to the point where the random sod who got dragged along for the ride because he managed to sneak in due to the matchmaking system glitches out thinks you are robots, all without having any fun at all.

Autism jokes get thrown around a bit too much to my liking these days, but it's the only thing that comes to mind reading this.

Proficiency at a job is a good thing, but it's not the only gain you get from it as you get paid to do it. With an MMO and this mentality... what? You pay to do it?

Makes me think of the sad shit around sex with robots being a farce of actual sex. This is much the same to do with work.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,873
What is the mentality of mmo players these days?

Are the games pay to win?
Pay to play?
Rail-road forced world or open world explore?
A front to get your bank account?
 

Glop_dweller

Prophet
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,164
Counter-example: Imagine going to work, except that all of your co-workers are utterly incompetent morons. They don't know how to do their jobs, they're aggressively hostile to the notion that there's a correct way to do their jobs, and yet their jobs are so simple a 6 year old can do them, and I know this because I replaced all of them with 6 year olds.
What's to imagine?
 

Poseidon00

Arcane
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
2,039
Because MMO's aren't designed to be fun games, they're designed to be addictions you need to satiate with more and more $.
 

Frusciante

Cipher
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
716
Project: Eternity
Dragon's dogma online does look pretty good from watching some videoclips. At least the combat looks interesting and competent. It doesn't seem that hard to make a proper MMO with combat like that...
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
Location
inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
My dream MMO would have this stuff:
  • Open world sandbox
  • PVP with looting
  • Either Dark Souls style combat or Mount + Blade style combat
  • Base building, clan warfare
  • Just about everything is crafted by players
  • Kenshi style 'down' system, where dying is kinda rare but limbs may get eaten and need replacing or some shit like that
  • Some sort of soft permadeath, maybe where when you die bank items and some stats carry over to next character
  • One 'lineage'/character per account
This would be the foundation. On top of that, there would be world-fucking events happening a few times a year. Something like:
  • One player solved some crazy ass puzzle and got a weapon that makes him OP as fuck. Clans need to unite to take down this player
  • Players somewhere accidentally release some pissed off ancient demon that ends up roaming the world destroying everything
Basically things in the world that allow emergent gameplay

ehh sad thing is this doesn't seem unfeasible but this game will probably never exist
 

Pharad

Novice
Joined
Feb 25, 2019
Messages
24
As someone who grew up in the times when WoW, Lineage 2 and the likes were at the top, I would love for more MMORPG's to be there. I think once we get into cloud gaming and all the stuff that is now offered in games with 10ish people playing at once can be done in a MMORPG environment, we will see a revival of MMORPG's
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
Have any MMOs done much with the concept of a human controlled NPC as part of major events/quests and the like? Always seemed like a cool and pretty viable concept to me. Would solve a lot of the trouble with players just memorizing a boss' script in order to fight it. Even better if the enemy in question has no leash and can just roam around the world, fucking up cities and going wherever it wants. Could do all sorts of cool stuff with that concept. You could even make getting to control the monster a reward for people to compete over. Well, probably not, for metagame considerations, unless you really restricted what it could do and where it could go.
 

Pharad

Novice
Joined
Feb 25, 2019
Messages
24
Just came across an article that made me think that maybe MMORPG's don't suck at all, maybe we just became ignorant to how good some of the experiences are, or the expectations we have are too great.
Here's the piece: https://www.eneba.com/blog/the-best-mmorpg-experiences-one-can-partake-in/
It lists out the best MMORPG experiences in the industry right now and having played most of them I've got to agree, MMORPG isn't dead, it just became more niche. As a lifetime MMORPG gamer I'm glad there's still something for me to enjoy
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Messages
999
My dream MMO would have this stuff:
  • Open world sandbox
  • PVP with looting
  • Either Dark Souls style combat or Mount + Blade style combat
  • Base building, clan warfare
  • Just about everything is crafted by players
  • Kenshi style 'down' system, where dying is kinda rare but limbs may get eaten and need replacing or some shit like that
  • Some sort of soft permadeath, maybe where when you die bank items and some stats carry over to next character
  • One 'lineage'/character per account
This would be the foundation. On top of that, there would be world-fucking events happening a few times a year. Something like:
  • One player solved some crazy ass puzzle and got a weapon that makes him OP as fuck. Clans need to unite to take down this player
  • Players somewhere accidentally release some pissed off ancient demon that ends up roaming the world destroying everything
Basically things in the world that allow emergent gameplay

ehh sad thing is this doesn't seem unfeasible but this game will probably never exist
You're describing Chronicles of Elyria to a tee.



Has everything you listed.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Good old mmorpg were "a chat with a game", those days they became "a game with a chat".
I think you mean the other way around, in the old days, we actually played the game and the chat was merely incidental, if present at all. Nowadays it's mostly about shitposting on the chat, and oh, there's occasionally a game people talk about.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
Arguably the MMORPG is the most declined genre of all (maybe jointly with the RTS). I have been hooked by two MMOs in the past: Star Wars Galaxies for the open world sandbox experience and Guild Wars 1 for the teamplay potential and good use of instancing.

Instead of progressing, MMO developers seemed to have just tried to make a bunch of reskinned WoWs, not improving on two of the main selling points of MMOs for me: (online) open world exploration/adventuring and teamplay potential.

My main frustration though with all of these MMOs is that the gameplay absolutely sucks and has not progressed at all in the last 15-20 years. When I'm used to Dark Souls or Dragon's Dogma why would I ever settle to play WoW/ESO/GW2 for hundreds of hours?

For me a big open world, sandbox MMO with the combat of Dark Souls or Dragon's Dogma would be absolutely amazing. Is it that this type of game would have no audience or something? I get that MMOs are huge investment and that risk adverse companies prefer to play it safe. But on the other hand, people seem to be abandoning this genre now for other genres for lack of any proper options.
The problem is that the games cost so much make. It is a problem in other games too, but with MMOs it just costs a really significant budget to bring out such a huge game, and nobody is willing to risk that much on something that isn't proven. They might try one or two ideas but they are not going to stray far from a proven success. In the world of MMOs there have been a bunch of small proven successes, and one really huge proven success (WoW), so everyone just copies the big success. And it mostly didn't work out well but all the failed MMOs usually didn't fail. They might have died, but they died after making a lot of profit. Anyway, MMOs are super expensive so copy WoW and will make money even if they fall short.

In all this time though I was sure there would be a company that saw the potential in satisfying a niche audience instead of trying to make something for everyone. Admittedly it happened with EVE and one or two others, but I thought there would be something for me amongst all that and there isn't. Vanguard was good for me but that ended. Now we have Pantheon though which is doing exactly what I said. I tried to convince him by email when he was starting the company and I expected to get blown off and he basically said, "we know". The devs know what we want and could make it, but the money men tell them to make a theme park ride that is safe for the whole family.

Did you try Wildstar, that is more actiony. I personally much prefer WoW Druid to Dogma or Souls type combat. I would like action combat but then these games tend to have you fighting so much, it could get too tiring and repetitive. I find WoW type combat much more tactical though and I much prefer that. My problem with WoW is the way the dungeons work.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
12,873
What is the mentality of mmo players these days?

Collect loot/trash >> manage your trash bags >> dispose of the trash at the merchant/dump.

Adventure out into the world for fun?

naw bro, collect trash.
Are there any hobo-homeless rpgs out there because this sounds like the locals down the block begging for spare coins and cash. Sounds so right too.... organize thine trash.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
My problem with WoW is the way the dungeons work.
Can you explain?
So my first MMO was EQ and the dungeons are amazing. They are huge, multiple groups can be in there at the same time, and things can go wrong. You see a room with 3 enemies so attack one, and 6 come because 2 were behind a hidden wall, and one was wandering past at the wrong time and now you have to fight 6 and might wipe unless the group is really good. WoW dungeons are never like that, they are very finely tuned instances, identical every time, never too difficult, same amount of mobs on every pull, everyone does their routine and everyone wins. There are a lot of things about WoW I don't like but the dungeons are what killed it for me the most. Some stuff I miss from WoW though.
 

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