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Decline Why I doubt VaultDweller's next game, and ZA/UM is likely finished

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Bester, Dec 14, 2019.

  1. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    I hear people talking about when so and so was in his prime, he made this and that game, but then he "sold out", "declined", "aged", "became a SJW", etc. The idea is that so and so stopped making good games, and people can't make heads or tails of this. I read a lot of explanations, and it always makes me think of that picture where blindfolded guys are feeling an elephant with a jew face, and call it wildly different things.

    When the truth is, broad strokes here, 90 percent of it is mental. At some point in a guy's career, he's just done it enough. He was hungry and had a big dream, but eventually he gets fed and that dream has come true, so how do you get up and do it again? Marvin Hagler, legendary boxer, put it this way: "It's rough to get out of bed to do roadwork at 5 am when you've been sleeping in silk pajamas".

    So the question is: how do you do it? And mentally, you largely don't. As a semi-professional athlete, I draw a lot of my experiences from the gym. At the gym, they say a fighter can grow old overnight. Once they lose that hunger, they stop training as hard, they start eating junk, don't show to practice on time, they leave practice early, etc. But you don't see them compete every day, and only see them once or twice a year in the octagon, so question becomes - what did they do in the last 6 months?

    With game devs, you see the fruits of their labor every 2 years for some of the top guys, 5 years for the average guy. So you really don't see a guy "decline" overnight.

    And so what it comes down to: what did he do in the last 3 years? Did he get up every morning at seven, only the project on his mind or did he have wife and kids to think about? Did he work till 8, then went home, had a meal and then researched till eleven, or did he leave office at 6 and left work at work? Did he put his miles in regardless of whether it was raining outside? That's what he did when he was hungry. Did he do that in the last 3 years? Is he still playing video games for research and pleasure? Does he still play tabletop? Is he still exploring ways to get better all the time? Does he still hang in there?

    So when I see VD saying he hasn't played this or that game when it's been MONTHS since it was released, it does make me reflect back on all these things.
    When I see George Ziets say he hasn't played Disco Elysium "yet", it does remind me of all these things again.
    Another great example of this is Avellone who notoriously doesn't play games at all. And I don't even have to mention Tim Cain who didn't know what a speedrun was until a month ago.

    It's just grades of "doneness". Tim Cain is well done. Ziets and MCA are medium well. VD is probably medium to medium rare. ZA/UM are fried chicken bones due to their latest success that they can never match again.

    What I'm offering to you is that none of them are blue rare.
     
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  2. barghwata Savant

    barghwata
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    Didn't you already make a thread like this before?
     
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  3. Verylittlefishes Sacro Bosco Patron

    Verylittlefishes
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    I've read this wall of text and can't agree with anything. Also your gym coolstories are irrelevant AND it was explained to you before in details (iirc).

    Best regards, amateur kickboxer
     
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  4. Kyl Von Kull The Night Tripper Patron

    Kyl Von Kull
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    ZA/UM has a hunger... a hunger for communism. And you well know that hunger can never be sated.

    Those guys are cadre. Maybe they’ll burn out eventually, but I figure they’ve got at least one or two more projects before the magic starts to slip (or they give in to bourgeois decadence and sell out). Disco was only a fraction of the game they were planning to make. Hopefully they’ll be able to make the larger game happen now that Disco’s a hit.
     
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  5. Verylittlefishes Sacro Bosco Patron

    Verylittlefishes
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    Also, cheap clickbait title and no exploration of topic at all. Colony Ship will be bad? Why? Because Vince is old? I would read that thing, but all I see is some generic shit about Russian athletes (which are thankfully banned now).
     
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  6. Lady Error █▓▒░ ░▒▓█ Patron

    Lady Error
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    So because VD didn't play the latest games, Colony Ship will be bad?
     
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  7. Verylittlefishes Sacro Bosco Patron

    Verylittlefishes
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    And what important these "latest gaems" could offer to influence the man who made AoD?

    You won't believe how much 1st class games I didn't play for YEARS after their release because, you know, no time.
     
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  8. Trashos Arcane

    Trashos
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    Here on the Codex, Zeits said he enjoyed Kingmaker, and has also commented on TOW. So there is that.
     
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  9. Salvo Learned

    Salvo
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    Of course commies are hungry, babies have very low nutritional values
     
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  10. vortex Fabulous Optimist

    vortex
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    It's the matter of guidance.
    Maybe Cain, Boyarsky, Feargus, Sawyer don't have the passion to make somethng new, but they certainly can carry the torch and legacy to younger generation of developers.
     
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  11. Verylittlefishes Sacro Bosco Patron

    Verylittlefishes
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    Oh shut up
     
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  12. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    I'm being confronted with the reality of people being unable to produce work after their first success on a regular basis. Patric Rothfuss? Can't even finish his trilogy, last book was published 9 years ago. Lev Grossman was a mediocre writer, until his sudden success and now he can't advance on his current book despite himself, and only releases mediocre and very short comic books on his Magicians world. George Martin, well you know the story there.

    And it pisses me off. Because I'm in the same boat as these guys to an extent. I got rich and now I can't produce work. My CPU is trying to solve this problem in the background all the time. But there is no way out.
     
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  13. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    In a word? Yes.
     
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  14. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    VD doesn't need Disco, because he has a different perspective how RPG writing should be, and it is actually closer to how pnp plays and is more advanced (choice placed not in flavours of roleplaying, but at character creation and critical points of the narrative).
     
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  15. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    Collegiate wrestling, greco-roman and free-style all have slightly different rules and goals - can you grab your opponent below the waist or not? Do you get away from the bottom position or do you avoid being turned? Many such things. But at the same time, they share many similarities and sure as Sam Hill, we watch all wrestling competitions, we know all the guys and we analyze them all. This is simply being professional, same as showing to practice on time with your gear. Nothing more to it than that.
     
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  16. Grauken Agent of the NWO Patron

    Grauken
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    You're really trying your best to get ahead in the "Who is the greatest moron on the codex?" race
     
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  17. Poos Arcane

    Poos
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    VD is probably working on his game if the detailed devblogs are anything to go by therefore doesnt have time to play games im guessing

    low-tier attempt at drama itt
     
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  18. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    MONTHS? Oh my... I guess I'd better see a doctor or something.

    I was busy taking it easy with Fallen Order and Sekiro. As for personal aspirations, AoD wasn't a dream come true but a first, flawed step toward that dream. Maybe after making 3 or 4 full-scale RPGs I'd feel old and tired and done, but right now all we care about is making hardcore RPGs.
     
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  19. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    ^ This is probably the most important piece of information out there regarding Colony Ship since forever. Glad to hear it.
     
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  20. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    As you probably know, Ivan, our animator, the guy we worked with for 14 years, has passed away after being ill for months. It's a hard thing to deal with, so I didn't post any updates for a few months (it just didn't seem important). The work itself didn't stop, if anything we had to work harder because we had to find people to handle wearables and animations in the middle of the project, taking over after someone, fixing things a person meant to do later, etc.

    Anyway, I will post an update in a few days and show what we've been working on. Having said that, you're right to doubt the game (or any other game). Just because we do our very fucking best doesn't mean the game will meet your expectations.
     
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  21. Transfiguring Roar Arcane Patron

    Transfiguring Roar
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    Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    Don't lose your grip on the dreams of the past, you must fight just to keep them alive.
     
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  22. Bester ⚰️☠️⚱️ Patron Vatnik

    Bester
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    Any other self-help book wisdom you wanna drop on us, buddy? Conceive, believe, achieve?
     
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  23. Trashos Arcane

    Trashos
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    As long as you are trying to find your bearings again, make sure that you do not lose your money. Even if it means that you put it somewhere where you cannot immediately use it.
     
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  24. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    There's a point to be made about how creators can try and recapture the magic. In any case, most games / ccreative projects are shit 90% of the time, and that ratio doesn't suddenly become 100% after you do one great thing (which is what everybody expects). No, you're still working against the grain to push back that 90% of shit.

    But the OP is running high speed down a weirdly specific hypothesis fueled by very partial snippets of info. I actually agree about MCA / Cain because they just seem like they haven't properly played a game in a decade, but playing video games right after they're released is a weird marker to use here. And it's barking up a weird tree for VD, who wasn't exactly playing every major release on Day 1 during AOD's development either. Just seems like a 'had a thought in the shower about how he hasn't updated in a while'. What was that about blind men and the elephant again?
     
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  25. Viata Arcane

    Viata
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    If that was true, Other World wouldn't look like any generic recent rpg and in fact would be as good as the old ones.
     
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