Why is magic so strong in most RPGs?

[Pulse]

Hi guys, first post here. I'm proud to be one of the community. Hope my first post doesn't get shat on too much.

I have noticed a tendency where in most single player RPGs spellcasters start out weak, but end up extremely overpowered. Obviously there are exceptions. However even in MMO's like WoW, where balance between players is important, mages have in general been consistently strong.

Do you also see it this way, or am I wrong in this assessment? If yes, any idea why? Perhaps it's a general viewpoint that magic should be strong? Or the setting itself (like D&D) where magic is OP, so a game based on D&D will also magic OP?

(Disclaimer: I enjoy playing spellcasters in many games, so this is not a magic-hate post, rather just curiosity).

 

[Butter]

Victor

Magic is a violation of physical laws. I suppose one could design a setting in which it's useful for nothing more than parlor tricks, but it invariably leads to questions like "If I can teleport across a room, why can't I teleport over a mountain range?"

 

[wishbonetail]

In DnDs there supposed to be party. Each party member has his respective role. Like in military, you probably wouldn't compare artillery operator versus recon or combat pilot.
If youre single character, it is just glass cannon vs tank gameplay style.

 

[Reinhardt]

because men in dresses are current hottest thing in the west and they need to be portrayed as awesum.

 

[notpl]

In DnDs there supposed to be party. Each party member has his respective role. Like in military, you probably wouldn't compare artillery operator versus recon or combat pilot.
If youre single character, it is just glass cannon vs tank gameplay style.

D&D casters aren't glass cannons, though, they are the most durable and harm-avoidant classes as well as being the best melee or ranged fighters.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Probably to make up for it never being anywhere near as useful outside of combat situations as it should be.

 

[Nano]

Dude. What are you talking about? If anything CRPGs usually make mages too weak when comparing lore and the gameplay. In P&P adaptations developers frequently make mages weaker than they are in tabletop.

 

[Cryomancer]

ven in MMO's like WoW, where balance between players is important, mages have in general been consistently strong.

And ... that is one of reasons which makes them boooooring.

The excessive focus on balance, the same reason which made D&D 4E so bad. IMO game mechanics should be in line with game lore. I hate gear farming, cooldown managing boring games.

In P&P adaptations developers frequently make mages weaker than they are in tabletop.

Exactly.

Mages tends to be extremely nerfed in CRPG's compared to P&P.

Just look to Spell fixes mod for NWN2 which UNnerf spells. Even in kingamekr which many people consider to have OP casters, most solo unfair builds are martial builds.

but it invariably leads to questions like "If I can teleport across a room, why can't I teleport over a mountain range?"

Because the spell has a limited range?

 

[Butter]

Because the spell has a limited range?

Why would it? That sounds like BalanceMan talking. if you're able to violate the laws of physics, why would physical distance be a parameter of the spell?

 

[NJClaw]

Magic is a violation of physical laws. I suppose one could design a setting in which it's useful for nothing more than parlor tricks, but it invariably leads to questions like "If I can teleport across a room, why can't I teleport over a mountain range?"

Because the spell has a limited range?

Why would it? That sounds like BalanceMan talking. if you're able to violate the laws of physics, why would physical distance be a parameter of the spell?

Is this a joke that I'm not getting? Magic (usually) is a violation of physical laws in the sense that it follows other made-up laws, not that anything can happen anywhere anytime.

 

[Viata]

A bunch of nerds who spent their time reading books all day instead of working out are really happy that characters who spent all their time studying books are the strongest. Now, the people making those rpgs are these nerds who did nothing but read book all the time.

 

[buffalo bill]

because nerds make RPGs, and nerds are weak and like books and have power fantasies about using books to be powerful

 

[buffalo bill]

A bunch of nerds who spent their time reading books all day instead of working out are really happy that characters who spent all their time studying books are the strongest. Now, the people making those rpgs are these nerds who did nothing but read book all the time.

posted this at like exactly the same time as you

 

[Pulse]

ven in MMO's like WoW, where balance between players is important, mages have in general been consistently strong.

In P&P adaptations developers frequently make mages weaker than they are in tabletop.

Exactly.

Mages tends to be extremely nerfed in CRPG's compared to P&P.

Just look to Spell fixes mod for NWN2 which UNnerf spells. Even in kingamekr which many people consider to have OP casters, most solo unfair builds are martial builds.

Fair point, but surely there are also RPGs without a P&P background, and mages are strong or OP also there. I'd love to understand the rationale behind that.

 

[Comte_II]

Magic is a stand in for tanks and artillery in classic wargames that rpgs are based on.

 

[Viata]

A bunch of nerds who spent their time reading books all day instead of working out are really happy that characters who spent all their time studying books are the strongest. Now, the people making those rpgs are these nerds who did nothing but read book all the time.

posted this at like exactly the same time as you

When you reject any bullshit reason, that is the only conclusion you can get.

 

[Delterius]

I have noticed a tendency where in most single player RPGs spellcasters start out weak, but end up extremely overpowered.

cultural artifact from older editions D&D, where spellcasting was balanced by not being able to do it very often. see https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards

in wrpgs magic users tend to grow in power exponentially. it's not just that individual spells might be stronger than physical attacks, it's that adding actions to a spellbook gives you a breadth of options that a purely martial character cannot have.

in tabletop a wizard can do whatever they want as soon as they have knowledge to do so. if the DM doesn't shut them down they can remake the world in their image. the warrior player otoh will use their imagination to enhance their bar fights. in a computer game the wizard can't do anything they want, but they still have a few dozen spells, while the warrior can attack, and if they are lucky grapple the enemy.

this is not always the case. wrpgs can have a situation where 'pure martial' characters are not really a thing, since their physical attributes are augmented by magical equipment, special abilities, potions and scrolls which all kinda level the playing field. jrpgs often run on martial supremacy, where swordsmen with spiky hair grow in power exponentially and wield magic anyways. more modern interpretations of D&D tend to focus on magic and martial characters working in tandem being the most practical and powerful option, which means the magic users buff the martials and everyone acts as a party.

 

[Cryomancer]

. if you're able to violate the laws of physics, why would physical distance be a parameter of the spell?

Because ""bending"" a small distance is easier than bending a larger distance. As Brandon Sanderson's said, limitations makes a magical system better. For eg "I can revive the dead" is silly, cuz take out all tension. Now "I can try to revive the dead, the likeless to succeed depends on the state of corpse and other variables" doesn't take out all tension. Same with teleport, elemental magic and so on.

A bunch of nerds who spent their time reading books all day instead of working out are really happy that characters who spent all their time studying books are the strongest. Now, the people making those rpgs are these nerds who did nothing but read book all the time.

I'm a huge magefan and work out every single day.

 

[Viata]

I'm a huge magefan and work out every single day.

 

[Daemongar]

I blame poor game design.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Magic is supposed to be strong. Illusion and enchanting magic is the strongest. If you feel exotic, you can use conjuration to create Golem.

 

[King Crispy]

Hi guys, first post here.

Welcome, then. RPG Watch refugees need to be de-loused and checked for tetanus first. Have a seat over there.

I'm proud to be one of the community. Hope my first post doesn't get shat on too much.

Let's take a look then, shall we?

MMO's

Uh...

like WoW

...you're not getting off to a good start here.

OP

OP

Like I said, have a seat over there.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

This hasn't been true for 20 years, which is a crying shame. Cool spellcasting is one of the best features a CRPG can have. Balance fags have taken it from us.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Hi guys, first post here. I'm proud to be one of the community. Hope my first post doesn't get shat on too much.

I have noticed a tendency where in most single player RPGs spellcasters start out weak, but end up extremely overpowered. Obviously there are exceptions. However even in MMO's like WoW, where balance between players is important, mages have in general been consistently strong.

Do you also see it this way, or am I wrong in this assessment? If yes, any idea why? Perhaps it's a general viewpoint that magic should be strong? Or the setting itself (like D&D) where magic is OP, so a game based on D&D will also magic OP?

(Disclaimer: I enjoy playing spellcasters in many games, so this is not a magic-hate post, rather just curiosity).

Magic sucks. Roll a barbarian.

 

[anvi]

If you don't have a book with 100+ powerful spells it's not an RPG.