Why is pickpocketing a thing?

[garren]

A problem with pick pocket is that it overlaps with so many other useful skills or gameplay mechanics already. Usually if you're a thieving character, then pick pocketing keys and stuff is useless because you already know how to pick doors/safes better anyway. Or why steal stuff from hostiles if you're gonna kill them anyway. The only unique thing for pick pocket that I can think of in games is the planting of bombs/evidence, or get a few extra items from a friendly NPC, so usually there are better skills to invest in.

 

[Dickie]

Another thing: you should be able to see and choose what you want to steal _before_ actually starting the pickpocket.

I'm picturing the player character sticking his hand in someone's pocket and just feeling around to see what's in there to decide if any of it is worth stealing.

 

[JarlFrank]

Pickpocketing in CRPGs is crap because game developers won't design interesting consequences for failures as long as most people keep savescumming. Still, games like Realms of Arkania did just fine.

There's no interesting rewards for success either. Oh I succeeded on my pickpocket, great I got 14 gold and a small health potion.

In Arcanum you can pick people's equipped weapons if you are really really good or invest a fate point.

Some people carry more valuable and useable things than just gold pieces and potions.

 

[JarlFrank]

Another thing: you should be able to see and choose what you want to steal _before_ actually starting the pickpocket.

I'm picturing the player character sticking his hand in someone's pocket and just feeling around to see what's in there to decide if any of it is worth stealing.

Add a sexual assault skill to increase your ability of feeling people up.

 

[ciox]

I remember early in the Underrail beta, the game had a classic pickpocketing system, where the outcome was completely opaque, whether it was just skills or also had random factors. After some discussions on the forum that changed and we got the current system where pickpocketing shows you whether it will fail or succeed for each item, and as you steal items the targeted NPC gradually accumulates suspicion in a meter, which usually prevents you from stealing every single thing even if you had excellent skill, meaning you have to pick and choose the best items to steal in any given situation.
It was a pretty great moment in the game's development IMO.
If I were to iterate on something like that further for another game, I would maybe consider having a more global suspicion meter that's tied to areas or big rooms, while it could add more bother, it could also add more immersion as you enter an area and start "casing the joint", seeing what most people are carrying, before you decide what the best items are to steal, amplifying the impact of choosing what you steal.

 

[gaussgunner]

Add a sexual assault skill to increase your ability of feeling people up.

If you're roleplaying a thug, why the hell not!

In Arcanum you can pick people's equipped weapons if you are really really good or invest a fate point.

It's not unrealistic to slip a pistol or dagger out of a holster if the mark is unaware. Hell, I've seen videos of cops getting their guns grabbed by the guy they're trying to arrest, even in "combat mode". Even if wielding it, if their strength or weapon skills are low enough.

 

[gaussgunner]

Another thing: you should be able to see and choose what you want to steal _before_ actually starting the pickpocket.

Or choose which pocket you want to pick.

If we go the simulationist direction, yes, that would be good, items in bags/pockets could be hidden and associated with greater risk of detection than, say, cutting a purse.

But if it's just an abstract randomized skill check, might as well show the benefit that you get for the risk.

Abstraction is fine but it deserves more nuance. It could depend what the mark is wearing. If it's a scantily clad barbarian chick you see her weapons and maybe a purse, necklace, or hat (showing a decent chance of success, but a 99% chance of alerting her and ending your pickpocket session) and you could also have the option of feeling around her titties, waistband, and feet for small hidden items like keys, gems, or notes (0% unless you're really good or she's really drunk). If it's a robed mage, you see their wizard's hat but there could be anything under the robe. You could have the option of going for holsters around the waist, shirt pockets, etc, but you have no idea what's even there before your first attempt. If you haven't been scoping the mark, you may not even know if it's a sorcerer or sorceress (high INT, lost in thought, easy mark) or a wiry male assassin who'll put a dagger in your belly in 2 seconds flat.

tl;dr: limited information beforehand, meaningful choices, and a variety of consequences.

 

[NecroLord]

It could depend what the mark is wearing. If it's a scantily clad barbarian chick you see her weapons and maybe a purse, necklace, or hat (showing a decent chance of success, but a 99% chance of alerting her and ending your pickpocket session) and you could also have the option of feeling around her titties, waistband, and feet for small hidden items like keys, gems, or notes (0% unless you're really good or she's really drunk).

Yes,I do wonder what one could pickpocket from her.

 

[Chippy]

Pickpocketing in CRPGs is crap because game developers won't design interesting consequences for failures as long as most people keep savescumming. Still, games like Realms of Arkania did just fine.

There's no interesting rewards for success either. Oh I succeeded on my pickpocket, great I got 14 gold and a small health potion.

The IE games did pickpocketing well. Getting that magic item from characters was well worth the investment, plus you could buff your skill with potions. It was exploitable I suppose in that you could sell your items to shopkeepers and then steal them back, but I suppose nothing was perfect.

I'd rather have had it in with its faults than to have it die out of RPGs as it has.

 

[thesecret1]

I think pickpocketing's fine so long as it's not tied to RNG – you either can steal shit, or can't, and if you can't, then don't even try (because let's be honest, if there are consequences, then they either lead to reload, or they make the whole thing not worth the effort in the first place – nobody's going to risk aggroing the town over a couple pennies in some loser's pocket while playing on Ironman). Worked nice in AoD and Chronicles of Myrtana – basically a way to get some extra loot, oftentimes worthless, but sometimes interesting (writings with lore, keys to otherwise inaccessible areas, rare ingredients, etc.). I found it pretty fun, even if it may not be a viable pick for min-maxing.

 

[Peachcurl]

It could depend what the mark is wearing. If it's a scantily clad barbarian chick you see her weapons and maybe a purse, necklace, or hat (showing a decent chance of success, but a 99% chance of alerting her and ending your pickpocket session) and you could also have the option of feeling around her titties, waistband, and feet for small hidden items like keys, gems, or notes (0% unless you're really good or she's really drunk).

Yes,I do wonder what one could pickpocket from her.

I'm not sure about pickpocket, but I know what to steal.

 

[gaussgunner]

I think pickpocketing's fine so long as it's not tied to RNG – you either can steal shit, or can't, and if you can't, then don't even try (because let's be honest, if there are consequences, then they either lead to reload, or they make the whole thing not worth the effort in the first place

What's the real problem though - the RNG, or the the ease of reloading and the consequences that make you want to reload? In most societies pickpocketing is low-risk low-reward petty transgression. In RPGs that what it should be in the beginning. IN THE END, however, it should progress to a high-stakes non-combat mechanic for a specialized thief, at which point RNG becomes less acceptable.

So there's a good argument for a strictly deterministic pickpocketing system as you say. Depending on your skill maybe you can't see their whole inventory, but you can't take what you can't see, so you never get random items anyway.

But if a game has savescumming deterrents, and pickpocketing RNG adds a fun element of suspense, and player goals don't hinge on the outcome of it, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

The most realistic portrayal of pickpocketing in an RPG is Daggerfall, where even on successful pickpocketing attempts you get literal pocket lint half the time

 

[rusty_shackleford]

get rid of on-demand cheating AKA quickload, problem solved

 

[lukaszek]

I'm not sure about pickpocket, but I know what to steal.

why steal if there are some free swords/arrows for grabs?

 

[Norfleet]

At that point you may as well just not bother implementing the mechanic, because a system which automatically fails with no additional player involvement and the consequences of failure are effectively game-ending (having the entire town permanently hostile is not really considered a playable state), isn't one anyone is going to use.

 

[thesecret1]

But if a game has savescumming deterrents, and pickpocketing RNG adds a fun element of suspense, and player goals don't hinge on the outcome of it, I don't see a problem with it.

Feeling of suspense is nice, but if failure leads to getting chased around town benny-hill style for 15 minutes (in the better case, where the game doesn't make the whole town permanently hostile or some shit), then who is actually going to go for this mechanic in the first place? Perhaps you'll try to rob some rich merchant or a nobleman here and there, but you aren't going to try it for fun on some random loser. Which might be realistic, but it means you're pumping skillpoints into something you'll use what, eight times throughout the entire game? Having it deterministic, while lacking the moment of suspense, still gives you so much more mileage on it – maybe the loser in the harbour has a strange key in his pocket that can lead to a sidequest. Maybe that beggar you flip some pennies to here and there carries 1k gold in his pocket, reveling him to be no beggar but a filthy grifter, etc. Pickpocketing does not provide much in terms of value – it is a support skill that nobody really needs, but which nevertheless can give the game a lot of detail and environmental storytelling. But if you tie these nice details with risks whose bad outcomes are too devastating or too tedious, then nobody is going to actually use it (and those who do and actually try to pickpocket everyone will just find themselves endlessly frustrated. Or, you know, just savescum past the RNG).

 

[Peachcurl]

I'm not sure about pickpocket, but I know what to steal.

why steal if there are some free swords/arrows for grabs?

HER HEART!

 

[Norfleet]

I'm picturing the player character sticking his hand in someone's pocket and just feeling around to see what's in there to decide if any of it is worth stealing.

Add a sexual assault skill to increase your ability of feeling people up.

In the real-world past, and still in places which are not quite so "progressive", pickpockets would actually plea-bargain "down" to sexual harassment, effectively using it as a distraction for the pickpocketing.

 

[NecroLord]

 

[Dakka]

Maybe the Dragonborn was inspired by Carmen Sandiego.

 

[ropetight]

When are these fools gonna make a sequel?

Warhorse was bought by Koch Media, and hired bunch of people (and are still hiring more).
I think they are currently porting KC:D to Switch.

With all the consoles and mobile they still haven't made port to make cash for Koch's and their fanatical attention to detail, I would say we will have early access KC:D2 by 2030.

If their next game isn't Survival MMO or something equally popular.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

I thought underrail's implementation was one of the best. KCD was fun, but the consequences were rather severe if you did get caught as I recall. BGs was the terrible old style reload until you succeed method, basically the penalty for failure was wasted time, creating what the cool game devs call degenerate gameplay. AKA perverse incentive. In an ideal game, the player would never choose between fun gameplay and effective gameplay, the effective gameplay would be the most fun. In a shitty game, the player is constantly asked to choose between fun gameplay (go explore that cave you haven't been to before) and effective gameplay (grind slimes for another hour). I'm looking at you, dragon warrior!

 

[Bigg Boss]

I thought underrail's implementation was one of the best. KCD was fun, but the consequences were rather severe if you did get caught as I recall. BGs was the terrible old style reload until you succeed method, basically the penalty for failure was wasted time, creating what the cool game devs call degenerate gameplay. AKA perverse incentive. In an ideal game, the player would never choose between fun gameplay and effective gameplay, the effective gameplay would be the most fun. In a shitty game, the player is constantly asked to choose between fun gameplay (go explore that cave you haven't been to before) and effective gameplay (grind slimes for another hour). I'm looking at you, dragon warrior!

Limited saves is the future of gaming.

Spoiler

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Limited saves generally means don't interact with random do or die mechanics like pickpocketing though. Although yeah limiting savescumming in some way does help in a number of other ways.

It's not like it's a problem nobody solved. You ever hear of anyone savescumming in diablo 2? Dark souls? Those games admittedly manage it by making death part of the gameplay, but still, a game can be quite successful without allowing constant save/reload. Of course then you have to design combat encounters that aren't meant to be passed via savescumming as well.