Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Why is RTwP so popular in modern RPGs?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Mustawd, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. Athelas Arcane

    Athelas
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2013
    Messages:
    4,502
    You seem to be under the bizarre impression that a game needs to achieve mechanical perfection in order to become popular. Some of the most popular games ever made allow you to pause to go to inventory and drink an unlimited amount of health potions with impunity. Some of them have an inbuilt god mode (VATS in Fallout 3). RTwP isn't really inherently 'broken' or 'flawed' in any way, all things considered.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    12,561
    No I'm not under that impression. But I would expect some kind of mechanics optimization throughout the years. I mean design decisions have to be made right? When these devs are planning the game, the issue if making it real time, FPS, isometric, RTwP, TB, etc has to come up.

    Do they just go, "TB is boring, but RT is too arcadey. Let's make it RTwP to try and make it tactical but less boring"? Do they say, "hey BG did, so we should do it too"?

    I mean, let's face it, whether or not it works, it really is a goofy mechanic. And the fact that you can play DA2 and DA3 without pausing makes it even less relevant.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  3. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,381
    Wish I could brofist this.

    PoE was the only RTwP game last year and the only major RTwP release in a while. In DA:I some skills only really work in first-person RT so I refuse to accept that shit as an RTwP game. Period. SCL is trash (and would still be trash if it were TB). And right now there's nothing, zero, zilcho, bupkis on the horizon. And TB fanboys, seeing the state of events, come here all smug and ask why RTwP is so fucking popular...

    I rate the OP 8/10. Obvious troll is obvious of course, but I'm still totally triggered.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Athelas Arcane

    Athelas
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2013
    Messages:
    4,502
    What's goofy about it? It shares many similarities with the RTS, but instead of macro (controlling lots of units) the focus is on micro (a small party with multiple abilities), which is why (presumably) there is a pause functionality.

    As I pointed out before, all of the games you listed except for two of them were games made either by Bioware or games made on Bioware's engine. In this case it simply is about one developer sticking to a proven (?) formula, and said developer being one of the few remaining major RPG developers. Do you also question why Bethesda makes first-person sandboxes?

    Anyway, it seems likely the DA series will switch to full-on action in the next game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
    ^ Top  
  5. Mustawd Arcane

    Mustawd
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    12,561

    To be fair I was referring to modern RPGs not necessarily current ones only. And yes, we now have more TB games. This not a TB > RTwP thread, it's a Why was RTwP around for so long? Part of it was I was watching SCL, and asked myself why even include the pause? Same questions asked by about DA:I.

    Athelas makes some good points, which is basically "If it aint broke do't fix it" kind of design mentality from Bioware. And then you have some others that include it for nostalgia purposes, (SCL and BG, SITS and Darklands, DA series and ).

    However, I'm sure some of it also was the fact that the industry considered TB too slow. And real time with a party is difficult without a pause.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,381
    Do yourself a favor and watch/play something with a sane combat system, like Aarklash: Legacy. It's simplistic but (on max difficulty) quite unforgiving. Fights aren't hard to figure out but if you make a mistake in your positioning or skill rotation, you're usually boned. Pause makes it possible to execute your battle plan.

    The question you should be asking is why RTwP hasn't evolved in so many years. Why do combat systems like the one in Aarklash flash for a moment and disappear into oblivion without leaving a trace? But this is easy to answer: because the majority of modern VG developers doesn't have a damn clue.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

    AwesomeButton
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2014
    Messages:
    11,860
    Location:
    At large
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    To answer the OP, there two reasons you would make your game RTwP:
    1. You get to call yourself a "spiritual successor" of something or another, although this scam has gotten too old by now in order to work again, or at least I hope it has. I'm pretty sure that SCL will be the last game we'll see in the "spiritual successor"-genre, because it will suck too bad and because the people whose money you can milk by calling your game a "spiritual successor" have largely been burned too many times or have died off.

    2. When your game has a pause button you can automatically boast a longer time needed to complete the campaign. :lol:
     
    ^ Top  
  8. The Brazilian Slaughter Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,873,926
    Location:
    Belém do Pará
    You say that RTwP is weaker than ever?
    Then let's try to strike a killing blow for all of mankind and slay the RTwP beast!
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    ^ Top  
  9. svvvs Educated

    svvvs
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    dinner
    Because it passes atention span check for all those ADD infested generation of gamers and that is majority these days.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Roguey Codex Staff Sawyerite

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    30,223
    You're the only person who's ever said this.

    Arguably one can play any rtwp game without pausing. So don't if you don't want to. It's there for people who want combat to be somewhat automated but without having to deal with the constant demand of having to make quick decisions.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,381
    Thanks for illustrating the difference between RTwP fans and TB fans so concisely.

    The former are mostly neutral or positive towards TB games because they understand that different people have different tastes and there's nothing wrong with it. The latter are, very unfortunately, a bunch of insecure kids (or adults with insecure kid mindset which is for all practical purposes the same thing) on an endless pointless crusade to convert everyone to their one true faith.

    It's the most one-sided Internet holy war I've ever seen.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. pippin Guest

    pippin
    There are people who won't buy games if they have turn based mechanics, because they think it's some sort of relic of the past, when games weren't advanced enough to process real time action.
    In fact, while it wasn't entirely specific, games being real time was an important marketing point even in the 90s. By the late 90s it was somewhat assumed that turn based games were for *those* guys. This is weird because there are many jrpgs which have turn based combat, or at least a variation of turn based combat, but people are ok with those because they see them as "strategy" games.

    RtwP is an accesible way to fool gamerz into playing tb games, because they will still pause and micromanage every x seconds/minutes, almost as if they were playing a turn based game. Yet they still hate those.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  13. tyrannosaurus rex Unwanted Douchebag! Shitposter

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,062
    No. No one thinks that. This is a codexian meme that you mindlessly spew without even knowing where it came from.

    People don't like TB because it's boring to them. It's. That. Simple.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. pippin Guest

    pippin
    I've seen people disliking TB for that very reason with my own eyes. And in the internet as well. They think it's boring because it's outdated. As I said, it's nothing new.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. prodigydancer Arcane In My Safe Space

    prodigydancer
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,381
    This "almost" may become quite a stretch, depending on which implementation of TB we're talking about. Crap like "you have one move action and one attack per turn" is nowhere close to the freedom of RTwP micro.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Excidium II Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    1,866,260
    Location:
    Third World
    This fag never saw the technical limitashun argument.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  17. tyrannosaurus rex Unwanted Douchebag! Shitposter

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,062
    I knew a fag would come up with that. Even though it doesn't contradict in any way what I just said. A few fringe journalist and corporate spokesperson who quickly retracted this occasional argument do not speak for the majority. Does it have anything to do with the CoD audience, No. Does the CoD audience ever read an IGN article older than 2008? They don't even read them.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. Excidium II Self-Ejected

    Self-Ejected
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    1,866,260
    Location:
    Third World
    lmao what does CoD audience have to do with anything.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  19. tyrannosaurus rex Unwanted Douchebag! Shitposter

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,062
    TB isn't mainstream because it occupies a niche that is filled by board games for the socially active casual consumer. The average consumer plays video games by far and wide because he wants to see epic shit happening on the screen at a pace non reproducible outside of electronic systems.

    Here is why turn based RPGs were abandoned for a while.

    With the advent of internet, hipsters organized, formed communities and indicated that this niche among other ones could still be exploited. As a limited niche. Which is essentially what the big kickstarters were about, the exception of divinity which tries to carve it's own casual audience using TB as a mean to a specific end.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. tyrannosaurus rex Unwanted Douchebag! Shitposter

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,062
    This fag never saw the ''we want the CoD audience''.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. Tabs Novice

    Tabs
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2015
    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Upstate
    RTwP also gives the player a sense of god-like agency. They can pause the game and think while the sucker AI just sits there waiting for the hammer to fall. On the flip side, TB games have the player sit there while stuff happens to them and they can't immediately react.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  22. Telengard Arcane

    Telengard
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,621
    Location:
    The end of every place
    Just go to the source.
    I'm bored now. You can find more yourself.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. tyrannosaurus rex Unwanted Douchebag! Shitposter

    Unwanted
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,062
    Exactly what I've been saying.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Latro Arcane

    Latro
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    6,619
    Location:
    Vita umbratilis
    press A to make something awsum happen
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  25. DemonKing Arcane

    DemonKing
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    4,616
    I don't care what the combat system is as long as the gameplay is fun. Personally I enjoy the combat in IE games - it's fast and visceral but still has enough of its roots in D&D to feel right, but conversely the awful camera in DA3 and WoW-like rules system doesn't combine well with the quasi RTwP gameplay.

    There have been some awful turn-based CRPGs too (POR2 I'm looking at you) where endless waves of trash mobs moving slowly across the screen destroy any semblance of fun. Even TOEE which was a great adaptation of the D&D ruleset was let down by lazy encounter-design whereby the slavish devotion to replicating the original D&D module resulted in the player fighting waves of bugbears for a lot of the game.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.