Why is RTwP so popular in modern RPGs?

[prodigydancer]

Perkel
Seriously, what's your definition of "trash mob"? Because traditionally a trash mob is just any non-boss enemy.

I have a feeling that you want to juxtapose setpiece encounters and otherwise memorable fights with "trash" (unremarkable) fights. If so, let me remind you that 9/10 of D:OS was fighting random groups of "trash" skeletons, cultists, orcs and whatnot that you could obliterate on full auto-pilot on any difficulty. The only purpose they served was being filler to justify Larian marketing claims that the game had 40 hours of gameplay.

You're right about one thing: irrelevant encounters in TB tend to be much more aggravating than in RTwP. You know that you've already won but you have to wait for AI to make its move.

 

[pippin]

When I noticed the Engagement mechanics, the rest of the game kind of went to shit for me. I though, yeah, it's like BG, but I already have BG and ToEE... I just wished I was playing those instead.

 

[prodigydancer]

Engagement was clearly a mistake but it's not the worst thing about it. Every game has weak design elements. What really stands out here is the circumstances and how Engagement was implemented. Josh was told - repeatedly - that it will definitely make combat more static and repetitive and he shrugged it off with basically "you're not developers, so what do you know?" Also AI relies heavily on Engagement, which makes it feel like a deliberate spit in the face of the modding community: "So, you wanna mod our game closer to IE? Well you have your work cut out for you."

 

[AwesomeButton]

There was no AI to speak of until well after the game was released. I think people who read the decompiled code discovered that?

 

[Roguey]

Problems with trash mobs are simply 10x more visible if you choose turn based combat thus why designers avoid it in TB games.

How many turn based RPGs have you played?

 

[34scell]

To be fair to the plebs FF turn based was pretty boring (which is what they think about when they think turn based). Still better than RTwP in my opinion, but I get it.

 

[Beastro]

Yup. It also pauses when you open your favorites menu to switch weapons/spells/etc. You can "play fairly" by binding such things to hotkeys and using them in real time, but Bethesda decided that's not a demand they want to force you to endure.

I'd chalk that up more to a lazy PC porting leaving that around when the porters ran on auto-pilot tying each item a number key without putting two and two together.

I think the main issue with this conversation is that while it is highly informed and detailed, most of its participants seem to consider that the success and fame of a game these days is related to intricate combat engine details like the Engagement system of PoE. In reality the majority of people that played the game probably just noticed nice music, kewlish graphs and of course....OH WOW THIS IS LIKE BG.
So yeah, RTwP did well with this one, a lot of people played it and a lot of people consider it as a BG successor, a successful one too. The engine flaws etc are for us in nerdy fora to discuss

For those in between a good combat system won't necessarily draw ones eye, but a bad one can torpedo a game.

Just seeing LPs of PoE combat made me DL Senuki's mod to disable engagement ASAP. Had it not existed I doubt I'd have bought the game.

I kept thinking about what battles would be like with their push and pull combat if Sawyer ran them. I bet the Battle of Cannae would have resulted in a decisive victory for the Romans as the Carthaginians encircled them only to allow die like flies to Roman free attacks.

 

[Mustawd]

How many turn based RPGs have you played?

Obviously not enough Spiderweb Software games.

 

[Mustawd]

Here's another provocative question: How does RTwP translate when emulating PnP style combat? I'm not a PnPer, but I am a wargamer. And everything I know about PnP and wargaming tells me that TB is the obvious choice in implementing a more PnP feel to a cRPG.

Are there any rulesets out there that make RTwP a better alternative mechanic to convert PnP rules?

 

[Mustawd]

The problem is that, sadly, there's no such thing as evolution of RTwP because evolution implies persistence.

Historically RTwP was a BioWare thing. Innovations did not persist because after BG2 BioWare started to lose their passion for innovation and under EA this process only accelerated. DA:O was their last serious attempt at making an actual RTwP CRPG but even things they implemented there could not be preserved because there was no-one around to pick up the torch when BioWare switched to ARPGs and MMOs.

This is a good point. And you can totally imagine Bioware going to EA to make another DA game..

Biowhore: So we're thinking of another DA.

EA: Is that the one with a party of people

Biowhore: Yeah, that's it!

EA: Yeah....we were kind of thinking that a single person game like Skyrim might be better...

Biowhore: Well maybe....but hear us out...*reasons which basically = BG aping*

EA: Ok...so that's fine...but are you gonna do that thing were you pause the game every few seconds?

Biowhore: RTwP? Yeah of course...unless...I mean,we could always do turn-b

EA: oh god no! Let's not put our audience to sleep ok guys?

Biowhore: Ok, so then what? A RT party RPG would be a clusterfuck without a pause....

EA: Well...can you make it more...Diabloish? And kind of like merge it with WoW?

Biowhore: I guess....but wouldn't that make it more actioney?

EA: Yeah!! That's the idea. Now you got it!


14 months later...

Biowhore Dev: Hey...this pause thing..we really don't need it after all. Should I take it out?

Biowhore Manager: Will it take long?

Biowhore: Yeah, maybe a few days of intensive work

Biowhore Manager: Fuck it...just leave it in. No one will notice anyway.

 

[Roguey]

I'd chalk that up more to a lazy PC porting leaving that around when the porters ran on auto-pilot tying each item a number key without putting two and two together.

You can hotkey items for real-time use on a controller as well, but only two.

Funnily enough, there's a PC mod that unlocks down and the diagonals for use so you can have 7 (up always brings up the favorites menu).