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Why morons shouldn't be allowed to vote.

obediah

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Vault Dweller said:
So BGII/FFVII/Diablo will always be RPGs, your free to make up a new term that includes the games you like but not these, you can make "Roll Playing" cracks, you can go on and on abouw how you hate console, japanese, realtime, action, party-based, isometric, paper-doll, bioware, or russoin rpgs, but you can't pull crap like "a real rpg has..."
Did I or anyone else say anything like that? If you want to rant, just say so, but don't pretend that you are arguing with someone :wink:

Um I did say so. In the big paragraph at the beginning of my post. When I get some time, I'll put for an argument rather than an insult.

Until then, RPG, like many words in the english language has grown to big, for two people to have a useful discussion on what is and what is not an RPG. People far smarter than I (and probably you) have wasted their entire lives on similiar tasks - it's far more fruitful to just think about the type of RPG you like. A classic example of the quagmire is for you to think of a definition of say a horse, that I can't come up with a counter-example that most people would consider a horse.
 

Shagnak

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Ignorance doesn't, failure to realize and accept the ignorance does.

Oh well we're all morons/retards then.

Well, in the Land of Retards, only the non-retard appears retarded.
Or something :?
Retard.

(actually failure to realize and accept the ignorance can just be obstinance and a whole lot of oither more innocent things, such as not being educated about their ignorance, and therefore being ignorant of their ignorance)
 

Saran

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Oh for fucks sake :roll: , like most of the lads over there if you asked me what my favourite CRPG was i would say the BG series,to be more specific, BG2, they were the first games that i played obsesively, i love them, for their story, their setting and their characters.

But according to almighty VD im a fucking moron, well guess what, i tried out BG becuase it was called an RPG, like FF7, the first "RPG" i ever played.

I prefer the "RPG" genre, why?

Because of BG 1&2,FO 1&2, Morrowind, PS:T and many others, all because they had all the things which i associate with a CRPG, simplistic, yes, but stupid fuck no.

RPG isnt some divine word, its not some message from the gods of gaming, its a fucking genre of computer games, nothing more, RPG's include all of the games you hate along with the ones you love because they have enough of the same characteristics to be lumped together.

Just like FPS's and RTS's and TBS's.

I despise lada's, they are the shittest cars on the planet (well, except for American ones :P :lol: ), be that as it may it doesnt mean that i can say "They are not cars" without coming across as an elitist prick, they are, they look like a car, drive like a car, have the same design and shape as a car so while i might think the engine is something that belongs in a Lawnmower (kinda like the way you despise RT combat and think it doesnt belong), a Lada is a car.

These people are not morons because they say something is an RPG and you disagree with them, they are morons becuase some of the games they choose are shit, thats personal opinion,thats something that you can justify without claiming that you on your own have insight no-one else has including nearly every Dev out there, but hey, if you want VD you can just go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears and say "NOT AN RPG, NOT AN RPG, NOT AN RPG", but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and nearly every person on the fucking planet says it is a duck, and the people that sell ducks to restaraunts agree, chances are they are right.
 

NeutralMilkHotel

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Messages
389
Vault Dweller said:
Ignorance doesn't, failure to realize and accept the ignorance does.

Being ignorant on a form of entertainment and not caring about the ignorance doesn't have much to do with intelligence. I would say it has to do with enthusiasm and effort though.
 

Mefi

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Hmmm... I tried answering the original question myself and hit the wall of defining 'genre defining'.

I mean when I was a kid Elite for the BBC B was a RPG - I was the sole commander of that darned Cobra MkIV, making moral choices in an open-ended adventure. Moronic or the sign of a healthy childhood imagination? In a sense, all computer games encourage you to 'be' something so could they not all be considered RPGs? :twisted: Without that kind of imagination it seems that children grow up to be unable to fully integrate with society. VD. :P

VD - if the only reason you can think of for some of those answers being moronic is that you 'say so', fine. But all the reasons those kids (?) gave do play a part in a genre-defining RPG, if you believe that BG is a genre-defining game. As other posters have said already, it is an age thing about what you consider to be genre-defining. It doesn't help that what an RPG is has changed so much over the years - I was looking at a listing of new games due out and found ER listed as an RPG... which scared me. A lot.
 

Greatatlantic

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Naming a game a quintessential RPG is one thing, but if you're reasons for doing so are a ton of characters, when other games have a lot more characters, I think moron or idiot is appropriate. Hmmm... I'll go read some of those comments again.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Some controversy, huh? Anyway...

obediah said:
Until then, RPG, like many words in the english language has grown to big, for two people to have a useful discussion on what is and what is not an RPG.
...
A classic example of the quagmire is for you to think of a definition of say a horse, that I can't come up with a counter-example that most people would consider a horse.
True dat. However, while we can argue about various definition of a horse, we can safely agree that saying that horse is something that has 4 legs hardly defines anything.

Shagnak said:
VD said:
Ignorance doesn't, failure to realize and accept the ignorance does.
Oh well we're all morons/retards then.
And how did you arrive at that conclusion?

actually failure to realize and accept the ignorance can just be obstinance and a whole lot of oither more innocent things, such as not being educated about their ignorance, and therefore being ignorant of their ignorance
What do you mean not being educated about the ignorance? Surely, any person may realize that what he knows on a subject is not sufficient. If he doesn't he is stupid. Simple as that. Anyone who'd ever had a conversation with a person who had no idea what he was talking about may attest to that.

Saran said:
Oh for fucks sake Rolling Eyes , like most of the lads over there if you asked me what my favourite CRPG was i would say the BG series,to be more specific, BG2, they were the first games that i played obsesively, i love them, for their story, their setting and their characters.

But according to almighty VD im a fucking moron, well guess what, i tried out BG becuase it was called an RPG, like FF7, the first "RPG" i ever played.
How is your reading comprehension? One more time, this is not about what's your or someone else's favourite RPG. Can we finally move beyond that point, please?

RPG isnt some divine word, its not some message from the gods of gaming, its a fucking genre of computer games, nothing more, RPG's include all of the games you hate along with the ones you love because they have enough of the same characteristics to be lumped together.
I'm losing my faith in humanity. What does this rant have to do with the subject? Where did I say in this thread "lol, BG2 is not an RPG?'

These people are not morons because they say something is an RPG and you disagree with them...
I guess it doesn't really matter what I said as long as you believe that I've said that.

but hey, if you want VD you can just go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears and say "NOT AN RPG, NOT AN RPG, NOT AN RPG", but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and nearly every person on the fucking planet says it is a duck, and the people that sell ducks to restaraunts agree, chances are they are right.
Nice rant. Did you post it in a wrong thread or something?

NeutralMilkHotel said:
Being ignorant on a form of entertainment and not caring about the ignorance doesn't have much to do with intelligence. I would say it has to do with enthusiasm and effort though.
Disagree. Intelligence can allow you to estimate your knowledge on a certain subject. You may not care that you are ignorant on some issues, but as long as you are aware of that fact, you won't talk about things you don't understand and thus won't look stupid.
 

Shagnak

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Greatatlantic said:
but if you're reasons for doing so are a ton of characters, when other games have a lot more characters, I think moron or idiot is appropriate...
Or more accurately: naive or unknowledgeable.
Let's save or moronicisms and retardations for worthier fucks, eh? :wink:
 

Shagnak

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Vault Dweller said:
Surely, any person may realize that what he knows on a subject is not sufficient. If he doesn't he is stupid. Simple as that.

Not necessarily, and you apparently have missed that most don't claim to be experts anyway.
Fuck your world-view is black and white and simple. Note that I don't accuse you of the requisite stupidness that that implies, because I think that you are otherwise reasonably intelligent.

The question was "what defines the RPG genre for you". The answers therefore reflect their current experience in the genre. They might not know much, don't necessarily claim to know much, and unfortunately answer in a way that makes RPG elitists such as yourself go "LOL, hurr hurr hurr, RETARDS!".
Their problem is ignorance, not stupidity.

As for my comment "we're all morons/retards then" - quite simply, there are times when we do not know we are saying something that sounds naive to someone who knows better. So what? It happens. It has happened to everyone at some time or another. (perhaps not you...apparently).
Under your broad retard-swathe that would make almost all of us retards.

And almost everyone on this board has probably seen the other side of the coin as well. Many an enthusiastic student has tried to "talk the talk", and I haven''t jumped up and down and said "LOL - you fuckin retard!", because by and large they weren't. They were just naive and trying to impress me with their intelligence.

Cthulhu forbid you have any fucking children. So unforgiving... :lol:

Edit: apologies for gratuitous editing. I am a retard.
 

Saran

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Then whats the problem, shagnak and many others have highlighted that a lot of people over there where asked "For any genre of your choice, what is the game that defines that genre for you?", how are they morons for saying what they like?

I've never played dune 2000, so if you asked me what RTS was the most defining game in the genre for me, i would say the original CnC, first RTS i played, i liked the explosions, the shitty acting and the cool tanks (at the time), sweet mother of mercy, ive just gone and described something that could be an FPS, "I M TEH STOOPID!!!!"

SOME of the comments might be a bit ignorant, but most of them are just people listing out what they love about a specific game and why they think it defines the genre, how are they stupid for that, ive already mentioned my distaste for roguelikes, am i justified in calling every man and woman that enjoyed that type of game a retard?

Personally, i dont think so, what ever gets it up for ya is how i feel about that, if they enjoy that sort of game what right do i have to go and shit on them.

"How is your reading comprehension? One more time, this is not about what's your or someone else's favourite RPG. Can we finally move beyond that point, please?"

Umm, but i thought it was, i thought that this was all about why you think someone is a moron becuase of "what's your or someone else's favourite RPG." , they say something you dont like, therefore they are morons, if thats not the point, fuck it, my apologies, i misrad what you were trying to say.

So, what are you trying to say?

How are these people(that are only replying to a question about what RPG in their opinion is the most Genre-defining) morons?

Is it their choices?

Or is it the features that they liked the most about the game they chose?

EDIT:
Vault Dweller said:
Don't forget a few things though. The question is not "name a decent RPG" and the issue here is not whether the BG games are good RPGs or not.

First, BG may be a fine game but it's not something that defines the genre. Second, don't look at what games the morons vote for, look at why.


Ahh, so its why they chose a particular game, so if i think a game is great, and i also (due to my lack of experiance with more games within the genre), see it as genre defining and i dont make a 10000 word review listing its pros and cons im a moron......ok

Maybe, just maybe, they were trying to say what they liked without going into too much detail, if i listed off a number of reasons why i like a particular game it probably wouldnt be that far away from what those lads are saying.

(Edit, and sorry for missing that, i hate giving such a lame excuse but its 4:16 in the morning here and i cant get too sleep, i missed that post in my first glance through the thread and that explains why you think they are morons clearly, i still disagreem but i understand why you thought i fucked up with my last post, its just that going by your first post i thought you were calling them morons because BG isnt a "True" CRPG.)
 

Deathboy

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Happy is a moron :D
'cause he has so much fun,
I wish I was a moron
O god, perhaps I'm one? :shock:

Moronity is carried on the Y chromosome that why mistress volly will never be one
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ROOfles
 

PennyAnte

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Here instead of playing an RPG.
obediah said:
Until then, RPG, like many words in the english language has grown to big, for two people to have a useful discussion on what is and what is not an RPG.
I don't know about this. It seems to me we can still talk meaningfully about the genre and its subtypes. How many RPG types are there besides aRPGs and cRPGs, for example?

Saran said:
how are they morons for saying what they like?
It’s possible to like something for a really idiotic reason. It's similar to thinking some bathroom book author is as good as Charles Dickens or Goethe. It is possible, in principle, to be wrong on some matters of opinion. It's not always a matter of taste.

You can enjoy that bathroom book author. It's the comparison to Dickens that gets wonky.

In responses to the genre-defining question, people cited qualities like:
-variety of characters
-different music
-secret areas
-epic story
-lovely looks

These have nothing to do with RPGs, necessarily. They are parts of gaming in general, and for example, are common to first-person shooters. How many of them actually talked about role playing – the ability to guide a PC through different choices and down different “life paths?” To be better, a given RPG must fundamentally do that better than other RPGs, I would think.

Many people, essentially, didn't even answer the question accurately. They either weren't paying attention or weren't taking enough time to really think about the answers. It comes off as a little, well, unreflective.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Just a quick note:

but hey, if you want VD you can just go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears and say "NOT AN RPG, NOT AN RPG, NOT AN RPG",

If anything, Vault Dweller sure as hell isn't guilty of that. Stubborn at times and adamant, perhaps, but he won't act the way you're describing. He'll actually discuss to death with you why he believes a game is an RPG or not. Surprisingly, several people that have argued with him or with other posters here have used the opposite of your example, though, ie, they stick their fingers in their ears and go "ITS AN RPG, ITS AN RPG, ITS AN RPG".

but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and nearly every person on the fucking planet says it is a duck, and the people that sell ducks to restaraunts agree, chances are they are right.

The majority doesn't define what something is, correct analysis of the subject does.

As an example, you'd be surprised at the amount of people that claim clouds are an example of water in its gaseous state, but this is simply not true. They're actually visible mass of condensed water droplets or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere. Should we believe the large number of people (or majority if you will) who claim this, or should we go with the facts? Another example for you: how many people claimed that witchcraft was real? Bucketlods. Who was right? None of them. Yet, at the time, they were the majority as well.

And just in case you plan on bitching about how what defines an RPG isn't as clear or as well observed as something like clouds or witchcraft, think of the context of what I wrote - it's not about how one defines it, it's pointing out that placing the deciding power on the hands of a majority when it comes to determine what something is, is bollocks.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Shagnak said:
Not necessarily, and you apparently have missed that most don't claim to be experts anyway.
When someone asks you what game defines the genre (vs what's your fav game), your opinion implies that you know what you are talking about, and are knowledgable on the subject.

Fuck your world-view is black and white and simple.
It's not, but that's not the point. There is no reason to complicate simple things and concepts.

Note that I don't accuse you of the requisite stupidness that that implies, because I think that you are otherwise reasonably intelligent.
OMG! You said that I'm intelligent, so I can't be stupid. This is, like, so black and white, dude! Totally!

The question was "what defines the RPG genre for you". The answers therefore reflect their current experience in the genre. They might not know much, don't necessarily claim to know much, and unfortunately answer in a way that makes RPG elitists such as yourself go "LOL, hurr hurr hurr, RETARDS!".
If they don't know much, they shouldn't post their opinions everywhere and should let someone else answer that thus learning from the experience.

Their problem is ignorance, not stupidity.
Stupidity is ignorance unleashed on unsuspecting public. Thank God, I was vigilant :lol:

As for my comment "we're all morons/retards then" - quite simply, there are times when we do not know we are saying something that sounds naive to someone who knows better. So what? It happens. It has happened to everyone at some time or another. (perhaps not you...apparently).
True, happens to all of us. We ackowledge our stupidity in such cases, learn, and move on.

And almost everyone on this board has probably seen the other side of the coin as well. Many an enthusiastic student has tried to "talk the talk", and I haven''t jumped up and down and said "LOL - you fuckin retard!", because by and large they weren't. They were just naive and trying to impress me with their intelligence.
Well, this is the Codex, not a school for slow people. Why the fuck would anyone want to listen to some moron... err, naive person trying to impress the fuck out of you with their idiotic opinion... er, I meant, intelligence? You know something? State your opinion, but be prepared to receive a new asshole if it's something stupid. You are not sure if you know something? Ask a fucking question. Stick around for a few days, and compare your level of knowledge to that of the forum's. If you are more knowledgable, impress us with your thoughts; if you are not, learn from somebody. Simple as fucking that. Some things shouldn't be black-n-white, some thing should.

Cthulhu forbid you have any fucking children. So unforgiving...
Too late for that.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Saran said:
Then whats the problem, shagnak and many others have highlighted that a lot of people over there where asked "For any genre of your choice, what is the game that defines that genre for you?", how are they morons for saying what they like?

I've never played dune 2000, so if you asked me what RTS was the most defining game in the genre for me, i would say the original CnC, first RTS i played, i liked the explosions, the shitty acting and the cool tanks (at the time), sweet mother of mercy, ive just gone and described something that could be an FPS, "I M TEH STOOPID!!!!"
Hmm, tough crowd. Ok, let me try this analogy on you:

You've read 2-3 fantasy books. You hear that someone is asking about books that define the genre. Normally, a voice in your head should kick in and say "listen, are you sure that 's a good idea? Are you sure that you know enough to talk about the entire genre?" Anyway, you ignore the voice, and you go ahead and post that Salvatore books, for example, define the genre for you because they smell nice and have pretty pictures on the cover.

Am I getting through here?

SOME of the comments might be a bit ignorant, but most of them are just people listing out what they love about a specific game and why they think it defines the genre
That's what being stupid is all about. People talking about what they like about something and why they think it's cool, without acquiring a clue first. We can come up with complex explanation of why people liked FOBOS, for example, or we can simply state that they are stupid and save the bandwidth for another occasion.

ive already mentioned my distaste for roguelikes, am i justified in calling every man and woman that enjoyed that type of game a retard?
Depends. You need to be knowledgable on the subject and have a point there that you can prove. Can you?

Umm, but i thought it was, i thought that this was all about why you think someone is a moron becuase of "what's your or someone else's favourite RPG." , they say something you dont like, therefore they are morons, if thats not the point, fuck it, my apologies, i misrad what you were trying to say.
Umm, no.

Vault Dweller said:
Don't forget a few things though. The question is not "name a decent RPG" and the issue here is not whether the BG games are good RPGs or not.

First, BG may be a fine game but it's not something that defines the genre. Second, don't look at what games the morons vote for, look at why.
Ahh, so its why they chose a particular game...
Better late then never.

so if i think a game is great, and i also (due to my lack of experiance with more games within the genre), see it as genre defining and i dont make a 10000 word review listing its pros and cons im a moron......ok
I think you've lost it again.

Anyway, we've made some progress here, and that's what's important! :lol:
 

Saran

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:lol:

Alright, i fucked up, when i saw your first post i thought it was another rant about how the games they listed arent CRPG's, and i missed the post where you stated clearly what you thought was moronic about their comments, so i apologise, i still think your being a bit harsh, but fuck it, if i had seen that post the first time i read the thread i probably wouldnt have posted.

So, when do i get my Illiterate title? :lol:
 

obediah

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Role-Player said:
And just in case you plan on bitching about how what defines an RPG isn't as clear or as well observed as something like clouds or witchcraft, think of the context of what I wrote - it's not about how one defines it, it's pointing out that placing the deciding power on the hands of a majority when it comes to determine what something is, is bollocks.

While this assumption may be true for things in the world, it's simply not true for language and communication. The underlying reality may not be directly susceptible to misconceptions of the masses, but our language certainly is. If tomorrow everyone but you decided the definition of the word "cloud" was " a boy riding a donkey", then who would be using the word cloud correctly?

HINT: It wouldn't be you.
 

obediah

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PennyAnte said:
obediah said:
Until then, RPG, like many words in the english language has grown to big, for two people to have a useful discussion on what is and what is not an RPG.
I don't know about this. It seems to me we can still talk meaningfully about the genre and its subtypes. How many RPG types are there besides aRPGs and cRPGs, for example?

I don't know what an aRPG is. :)

I'm not saying we can't compare RPGs, the problem is trying to classify them, either to be able to definitively say that a game is or is not an RPG, or to place it into a single RPG sub-genre. If you can make a test for determining if a game is an RPG, I can make a game that will break your test. The chance of you getting another person to agree with you exactly on your exact criteria is zero.

Everyone has different features associated with 'cRPGS', that's going to be based on the things that stuck during their experience with other games termed 'cRPGS'. People that like 'RPGs' are going to tend to associate the term with the things they liked that were common to many of the games termed 'cRPGS'. People that don't like them are going to associate the term with common things they didn't like. Early experiences have more affect than late experiences, and other things going on in your life during the experiences factor in as well. Everyone has played different games at different times, with different results - so you're never going to get a universal definiton for RPGs.

So going around saying game B is not an RPG because it doesn't have X while game C is an RPG because it has Y, and D is an RPG because it doesn't have Z, is usually just stupid elitist crap. You can express the same tests with, I really like X and Y, but not Z in my RPGs. It's not just semantics either. The first is based on a misconception that your personal experiences with a fuzzy classification term is some universal truth.
 

PennyAnte

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obediah said:
I don't know what an aRPG is. :)
Action RPG, like Diablo II. Not a lot of player character development in the sense of good/evil/personality, like a cRPG, but plenty of development in the sense of skills and a combat "build."

I would argue that an aRPG is a "lesser" RPG relative to a cRPG because a cRPG can give you both kinds of pc development, and is therefore “deeper,” better rounded and a greater achievement. But that statement's likely to frustrate you anew. :)

obediah said:
So going around saying game B is not an RPG because it doesn't have X while game C is an RPG because it has Y, and D is an RPG because it doesn't have Z, is usually just stupid elitist crap.
Surely, in principle, we can still have broad categories to facilitate discussion about games and other artistic works. Otherwise we'd never be able to meaningfully talk about a mystery novel vs. a thriller vs. a romance novel. Just because a thriller may have a lot of romance and not exactly fit the mold doesn't mean it isn't useful to retain the concept of broad categories.

There's no need to throw away the entire framework of discourse just because there are exceptions to the rules.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Saran said:
Alright, i fucked up, when i saw your first post i thought it was another rant
Don't worry - honest mistake.

i still think your being a bit harsh...
Fair enough

So, when do i get my Illiterate title? :lol:
You should try harder to get this one :wink:
And Shagnak thinks that I'm unforgiving. *sighs* :lol:
 

Deathboy

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Vault Dweller said:
Note that I don't accuse you of the requisite stupidness that that implies, because I think that you are otherwise reasonably intelligent.
OMG! You said that I'm intelligent, so I can't be stupid. This is, like, so black and white, dude! Totally!
Ummmmm would you fly on an Air line whose advertising contained the blurb "otherwise reasonably safe"?

the expression damned with faint praise spring to mind :(
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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obediah said:
Role-Player said:
And just in case you plan on bitching about how what defines an RPG isn't as clear or as well observed as something like clouds or witchcraft, think of the context of what I wrote - it's not about how one defines it, it's pointing out that placing the deciding power on the hands of a majority when it comes to determine what something is, is bollocks.

While this assumption may be true for things in the world, it's simply not true for language and communication. The underlying reality may not be directly susceptible to misconceptions of the masses, but our language certainly is. If tomorrow everyone but you decided the definition of the word "cloud" was " a boy riding a donkey", then who would be using the word cloud correctly?
[hint]The key word was "context"[/hint]
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Deathboy said:
Vault Dweller said:
Note that I don't accuse you of the requisite stupidness that that implies, because I think that you are otherwise reasonably intelligent.
OMG! You said that I'm intelligent, so I can't be stupid. This is, like, so black and white, dude! Totally!
Ummmmm would you fly on an Air line whose advertising contained the blurb "otherwise reasonably safe"?

the expression damned with faint praise spring to mind :(
What's with this thread and people missing points? Is it cursed or something?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Jan 7, 2003
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28,024
I think you are right, but we should ask Fez the Pope to bless it, just to be safe.
 

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