Why morons shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[Volourn]

"don't think that Pete's stupidity should be used as an argument here. At any rate, he was talking about the isometric thing, not about the entire genre, especially considering that the ES series is one of the long standing champions."

You missed he point here. He was talking about isomentric engines and instead of referencing FO - you know, the license he was actually tlaking about - he referenced the IE. If that's not having influenced the genre; you don't know what influence is. I mean he totally ignored the fact that FO was also isometric even while he was answering questions on whteher or not FO3 was gonna be isometirc or not. R00fles, again!


"So? BL used HL2 engine. MW, Pirates!, FF, and Empire Earth 2 use the same engine. Bio, Obsidian, and inXile got Unreal engine. I guess they are making FPSs then."

Cute; but wrong. If you cna't see the simialrties between IWD and BG. Youa re nuts. Afterall, they ahve the same graphics, same combat, same dialogue system, same everything. Not to mention the fact that the only reason IWD was made was because of BG's success. Period. And, who knows, maybe BIO, Obsidian, and Inexile ar emaking FPS. Afterall, I have it on eliter authority that URE can't do RPGs. R00fles!


"You've gotta be kidding."

No, I don't gotta be kidding. if you can't see BG's influence on TOEE; you are on crack.The entire art/graphics engine reeks of a souped up IE, fool. Not to mention everything else it has.

 

[Spazmo]

You missed he point here. He was talking about isomentric engines and instead of referencing FO - you know, the license he was actually tlaking about - he referenced the IE. If that's not having influenced the genre; you don't know what influence is. I mean he totally ignored the fact that FO was also isometric even while he was answering questions on whteher or not FO3 was gonna be isometirc or not. R00fles, again!

Volourn, when Hines was talking about isometric games, he was talking about what Bethesda probably isn't going to do. So tell me, which sounds better to you when talking about an upcoming Fallout game (paraphrasing):

"We're not going to start doing Baldur's Gate style isometric games."

OR

"We're not going to start doing Fallout style isometric games."

He only mentions Baldur's Gate over Fallout because using Fallout in that statement would have been doubly terrible.

 

[Volourn]

Oh please. Nice try at a lame cover up. He mentioned Bg when it came to isometric games because it's likely that's the game he thought of when he heard 'isometirc RPG'. Nice try; though.

 

[Spazmo]

Even though he was directly asked a question about Fallout and had been dealing with Fallout-related business all day (Hines was bombarded with questions after the announcement of Bethesda's acquisition of the FO3 rights)? I'm not arguing that, good or bad, Baldur's Gate has had an immense influence on the RPG genre, but to state that the game is so omnipresent in people's minds that Hines would reflexively refer to it instead of Fallout in this case instead of the reason I give is doubtful.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You missed he point here. He was talking about isomentric engines and instead of referencing FO - you know, the license he was actually tlaking about - he referenced the IE. If that's not having influenced the genre; you don't know what influence is.

Riiight. Pete was talking about very specific thing - game perspective. Game feature doesn't equal to entire genre, I hope you agree with me here.

Cute; but wrong. If you cna't see the simialrties between IWD and BG. Youa re nuts.

I probably am, but if you don't see the similarities between Diablo and IWD, you are nuts too. The only question here is which set of similarities is heavier.

Afterall, they ahve the same graphics, same combat, same dialogue system, same everything.

Cool. Then how come you never put this game on the same level as the BG games? You often state your fondness of them, use them as reference when rate other games, yet I don't believe I heard anything about IWD from you. I mean, apparently it's as good as BG in every aspect, yet I don't hear any praises from you or from anyone else for that matter. What would explain that mystary, I wonder?

Not to mention the fact that the only reason IWD was made was because of BG's success.

Yes, and the only reason FOT and FOBOS were made was Fallout's success. Your point is? The difference between Diablo and BG, for example, is that after Diablo was made, other companies started making games very similar in all aspects. Unfortunately, and I do mean it, the BG series stand alone because nobody followed. Slamdunks like IWD and ToEE were made, but while looking somewhat similar and using the same license, they were never supposed to be games of the BG caliber. We all know that, so what this argument is all about?

No, I don't gotta be kidding. if you can't see BG's influence on TOEE; you are on crack.The entire art/graphics engine reeks of a souped up IE, fool. Not to mention everything else it has.

Yes, it does. So, where is the BG-style gameplay? ToEE is a short dungeon crawler, BG is a huge story-driven game. Yes, I see it now, it's practically the same game!!!

 

[Volourn]

"Cool. Then how come you never put this game on the same level as the BG games? You often state your fondness of them, use them as reference when rate other games, yet I don't believe I heard anything about IWD from you."

Huh? I like IWD. Not as much as BG; but I like it. And, I don't put it on the level of BG 'cause I don't think at its level; but it sure as heck exists because of BG.


"The difference between Diablo and BG, for example, is that after Diablo was made, other companies started making games very similar in all aspects."

And? How many Diablo clones have been as successful as Diablo? None. same with the Bg clones, and even the Fo clones. Obviously, Fo has had some influence on the RPG genre as well. I have never eprsonally denied that. Just not as much as BG amongst actual RPGs and games that are called RPgs thoguh they aren't ala Diablo.


"Yes, I see it now, it's practically the same game!!!"

R00fles! Saying something as na influence ons oemthing doesn't mean it's the same thing. That's dumb. I mean, my pop and I must be the same eprson as he's add least some influence on me. Uhuh. Whatever.

Agaian, if you can't see the influence of BG on TOEE thats' YOU being purpsefully blind.The graphics alone, once again, are a huge send up off the IE.

R00fles!

 

[Sol Invictus]

So? BL used HL2 engine. MW, Pirates!, FF, and Empire Earth 2 use the same engine. Bio, Obsidian, and inXile got Unreal engine. I guess they are making FPSs then.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Icewind Dale shares the exact same combat, party control, interface, rules, character system and even graphics as Baldur's Gate. It's also got a lot more story than Diablo. It's literally Baldur's Gate reskinned, with more combat and less dialogue. Icewind Dale wasn't a 'mindless' hack and slash game. If you'll recall, there was a story, none of the areas were randomized (except for some crates), and each area had NPCs, just like Baldur's Gate.

As for other examples of BG clones or those who try to make money off of BG's success: Divine Divinity, TOEE, and BGDA (even it's a good 'ol fashion hns).

You've gotta be kidding.

Nope. I have to agree with him there. Divine Divinity had the combat of Diablo 2, but the character interaction and storyline was closer to Baldur's Gate. ToEE, while a dungeon crawler, had far more features in common with BG than it did with Diablo 2. The fact that you controlled a party is one, as is the fact that it was D&D. ToEE was a tactical party-based game, similar to Baldur's Gate. Diablo was a hack & slash, action RPG. I haven't played BGDA, so I can't comment on that.

I don't think that Pete's stupidity should be used as an argument here. At any rate, he was talking about the isometric thing, not about the entire genre, especially considering that the ES series is one of the long standing champions.

Pete's stupidity? Please. He was writing very good critical reviews at Avault (back in its heyday) long before he moved to Bethesda Softworks. He's far from 'stupid'. Regardless of what you think of Pete, Baldur's Gate is the genre defining "epic RPG". Fallout wasn't an "epic RPG". Fallout was a genre defining RPG with meaningful choices in it rather than an RPG with a "Tolkienesque storybook narrative".

 

[Volourn]

Great. The Waffler agrees with me. I have lost this battle. You win Spazmo and VD.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Fuck you, Theodore Bouchard.

 

[Volourn]

After that funny I must waffle as well and take back my last post. I am now happy you are on my side.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And, I don't put it on the level of BG 'cause I don't think at its level

Exactly. One's an epic RPG, the other was a slamdunk to buy BIS/Interplay some time.

...but it sure as heck exists because of BG

So? FOT, FOBOS, and Lionheart exist because of Fallout. Doesn't mean that they could be grouped together.

And? How many Diablo clones have been as successful as Diablo?

That's your defense? Looking at the numbers? We aren't talking about success, we are talking about physical fucking presense.

Anyway, I don't have any numbers readily available, but it seems to me that Dungeon Siege did well, no? Sacred seems to be doing ok too. It aint Diablo, but at least it didn't tank.

None. same with the Bg clones, and even the Fo clones.

I agree with you here, because there was only one clone for each game, both courtesy of Carsten. There was also that shitty Shadow Vault game that came from Europe. North American publishers didn't give a damn. In fact, as we all know BG3 won't even have the isometric perspective of the first 2 games, and Atari wasn't interested in making a BG-level game out of ToEE. So, some influence, huh?

Don't get me wrong, BG should have had more influence, more games with a similar gameplay should have been made, but it just didn't happen. Damn publishers

Agaian, if you can't see the influence of BG on TOEE thats' YOU being purpsefully blind.The graphics alone, once again, are a huge send up off the IE.

You are talking about little things like graphics and some nods here and there, I'm talking about the genre and gameplay-style in general. Take WarCraft, for example, now that's a genre-defining game. Bliz made it, and everyone wanted to make one like it. There were shitty games, there were good games, but overall, there is no shortage of games with similar gameplay. We can't say the same about BG. Simple as that.

Edit: I'll reply to Exitium's post later. I'm watching Army of Darkness now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Icewind Dale shares the exact same combat, party control, interface, rules, character system and even graphics as Baldur's Gate.

Everything but the gameplay which is what defines a game. One can take Arcanum for example, and make a hack-n-slash mod with some story that connects "killing fields". Such a mod would share the "exact same combat, party control, interface, rules, character system and even graphics" yet would have nothing in common with Arcanum. That's my point.

It's literally Baldur's Gate reskinned, with more combat and less dialogue.

The gameplay is totally different. That explains why the BG series were a hige hit and the IWD series weren't.

Icewind Dale wasn't a 'mindless' hack and slash game. If you'll recall, there was a story, none of the areas were randomized (except for some crates), and each area had NPCs, just like Baldur's Gate.

Ok, to avoid pointless arguing, do you see any difference between BG and IWD? If yes, specify. If no, I doubt I would be able to convince you otherwise.

Nope. I have to agree with him there. Divine Divinity had the combat of Diablo 2, but the character interaction and storyline was closer to Baldur's Gate.

I disagree, it was way to simplistic, and in my opinion, much closer to Diablo 1 than to BG. There was a bunch of quests, but overall the game is hack-n-slash, nothing more.

ToEE, while a dungeon crawler, had far more features in common with BG than it did with Diablo 2. The fact that you controlled a party is one, as is the fact that it was D&D.

Well, in this case every DnD party-based game is influenced by BG, even the ones that came before BG like Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades, etc. You can't (well, I guess you can, but really shouldn't) group games by licenses and whether or not they are party-based. It doesn't make sense.

Btw, a fun fact, I have never said that ToEE had anything in common with Diablo.

ToEE was a tactical party-based game, similar to Baldur's Gate.

JA2 was also a tactical party-based game, so?
Anyway, come to think of it, the closest games to the BG series would be the Realms of Arkania games, but then again it was a long time ago. Anyone who has a better memory cares to comment on that?

Pete's stupidity? Please. He was writing very good critical reviews at Avault (back in its heyday) long before he moved to Bethesda Softworks. He's far from 'stupid'.

He made a huge PR mistake when he made that BG comment. That's "stupid" in my book. To be fair though, that doesn't imply that he's stupid and so is everything he's ever did. We're all capable of making smart and stupid decisions. In that particular case, that was 100% stupid.

Fallout wasn't an "epic RPG"

I didn't say anything about Fallout at all, and my original post didn't imply that Fallout is a genre-defining game.

 

[Volourn]

You seem to be mistaking 'influence' with 'carbon copy'.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not carbon copies but games featuring similar gameplay, games that would take what BG had to offer and take it even further. Progress and evolution.

 

[Spazmo]

And IWD certainly isn't an evolution of BG. It might be argued that NWN is, or at least was intended to be, but I don't think it counts when a company influences itself with its games.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Baldur's Gate is the genre defining "epic RPG".

Hmmm... I'm going to disagree with this one, I think Betrayal at Krondor deserves that honor. It seems like every "epic" RPG I ever play borrows from it, though I haven't played Baldur's Gate, so I might not be the best person to make this argument. While Obviously there is more to it than just being first, but there is also more to it then just being popular.

Here's what BaK had:

Non-descript start of simple (escort) mission to achieve low end aim

Brutal, evil tyrant who wants to control good and lawful kingdom

Guild of Mysterious Assaissins... who rise from the dead

Trolls, dwarves, elves, and a dragon

Escape from Villain's Lair

Journey to another dimension

Even greater Evil at work besides tyrant

PCs killed

Betrayal of trusted advisors

World almost destroyed

and, simple boy helps save world and becomes hero.


While not all of those features (give or take a detail) appear in epic RPGs, a lot of them do. Hence, I see this as the epic RPG blueprint.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Everything but the gameplay which is what defines a game. One can take Arcanum for example, and make a hack-n-slash mod with some story that connects "killing fields". Such a mod would share the "exact same combat, party control, interface, rules, character system and even graphics" yet would have nothing in common with Arcanum. That's my point.

Yes, but the point is that Icewind Dale has far more in common with Baldur's Gate than it does with Diablo than a "killing fields" mod would with Arcanum, especially if a lot of the stats were thrown out the window. Icewind Dale retained every aspect of Baldur's Gate character system. It did have dialogue, subquests and the like, after all.

The gameplay is totally different. That explains why the BG series were a hige hit and the IWD series weren't.

Nobody was interested in playing a spin-off of Baldur's Gate. That's how they saw Icewind Dale. It wasn't because the gameplay was different - it was because it was the same, yet of a poorer quality. On top of that, Icewind Dale was released on the exact same day as Diablo II.

Ok, to avoid pointless arguing, do you see any difference between BG and IWD? If yes, specify. If no, I doubt I would be able to convince you otherwise.

Yes. Baldur's Gate is like an Intel Pentium. IWD is an Intel Celeron. Same core, same everything, in everything but quality. IWD is the stripped down version manufactured with cheaper parts and at a lesser cost. That said, the IWD is 'close to being a Cyrix', which is your argument - but the fact is that it isn't a Cyrix. It's still an Intel.

I disagree, it was way to simplistic, and in my opinion, much closer to Diablo 1 than to BG. There was a bunch of quests, but overall the game is hack-n-slash, nothing more.

There was plenty of character and environmental interaction in Divine Divinity that was not present in Diablo. Dialogue was rather simplistic, but the interaction with the game world rivalled that of Ultima 7, which neither Baldur's Gate nor Diablo had. If anything, I'd say Divine Divinity was closer to Ultima 7 (minus the party) than any other game mentioned.

Well, in this case every DnD party-based game is influenced by BG, even the ones that came before BG like Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades, etc. You can't (well, I guess you can, but really shouldn't) group games by licenses and whether or not they are party-based. It doesn't make sense.

The Gold Box games were extremely simplistic in comparison to ToEE and Baldur's Gate. The influence was very minor there. If you're going to argue that ToEE wasn't influenced by Baldur's Gate, I'd say that they were influenced more by the original vanilla Pen and Paper campaign over anything else.

Btw, a fun fact, I have never said that ToEE had anything in common with Diablo.

Mea culpa.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Icewind Dale wasn't a 'mindless' hack and slash game. If you'll recall, there was a story, none of the areas were randomized (except for some crates), and each area had NPCs, just like Baldur's Gate.

I don't think it's very reasonable to suggest Icewind Dale wasn't a mindless H&K based on it having those features.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I don't think it's very reasonable to suggest Icewind Dale wasn't a mindless H&K based on it having those features.

That's like saying it's not very reasonable to call Doom 3 a first person shooter on account of it being a shooter that takes place in a first person viewpoint.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I don't think it's very reasonable to suggest Icewind Dale wasn't a mindless H&K based on it having those features.

That's like saying it's not very reasonable to call Doom 3 a first person shooter on account of it being a shooter that takes place in a first person viewpoint.

Except a first-person shooter can be defined by such features, whereas a 'mindless' hack and slash cannot be exclusively validated, or to me made invalid, by the ones you mentioned.

 

[Sarvis]

Just for the record Final Fantasy 6 is probably the best game in the series, and the series itself has probably had more influence on the genre than any other CRPG series. That influence may not be particularly _good_ in your opinions, but it's still there.

 

[Deathboy]

Sorry I've been away dealing with RL "issues"

Shagga (?)

It explains why Fez and the above are such good pals and why he has no time for me any more

As a rule, while you are here, don't take any comment that starts with OMG! seriously.

:shock: Really:shock:
You do seem to have a lot of posts so maybe your being sarcastic.....

 

[Deathboy]

Sorry I've been away dealing with RL "issues"

Shagga (?)

It explains why Fez and the above are such good pals and why he has no time for me any more

As a rule, while you are here, don't take any comment that starts with OMG! seriously.

:shock: Really:shock:
You do seem to have a lot of posts so maybe your being sarcastic.....

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry for the late reply, too busy at work:

Yes, but the point is that Icewind Dale has far more in common with Baldur's Gate than it does with Diablo... Icewind Dale retained every aspect of Baldur's Gate character system.

That's DnD, and since there is a large number of pure hack-n-slash DnD games, your point is invalid.

It did have dialogue, subquests and the like, after all.

Yet without BG's level of depth. MW, Lionheart, and even Bloodlines have dialogues and subquests, yet they have very little in common with BG. The BG series was more than DnD license, dialogues, and quests combined in one package, just like Diablo was more than just kill 'em all game. The lack of understanding of what made these games successful is why 90% of clones suck so badly.

Nobody was interested in playing a spin-off of Baldur's Gate. That's how they saw Icewind Dale.

Is that a fact? Let's see some reviews:
GameSpot:
"Billed as sort of a dumbed-down hack-and-slash version of the epic fantasy role-playing game Baldur's Gate...
Aside from its contextual similarity, Icewind Dale actually has little in common with Baldur's Gate. You'll rarely if ever get caught up in solving various puzzles or finding miscellaneous trinkets for townspeople. Instead, you'll fight monsters, find powerful artifacts, and explore some very interesting environments."

IGN:
"Some players may be turned off by the amount of combat in the game, as there is definitely more action than dialogue. There really isn't anything wrong with the story, but it's really just an excuse for you to go out and kill things. ... But Icewind certainly delivers on the action end"

Feargus:
"...we focused a lot more on combat and items..."

JE Sawyer:
"...to make the same sort of intricate complex games [as PST], but just lower that intricacy level a bit, bring up the action level and just make a game that says, super-fun, easy to pick up"

Feargus:
"Jonric: In Black Isle's own foray into the Forgotten Realms, Icewind Dale, you made a dungeon crawl with a pretty linear plot emphasizing combat and treasure-hunting. Why did you go in this direction instead of making an epic more like the Baldur's Gate games, or using a stronger story emphasis like Planescape: Torment?

Feargus Urquhart: We wanted to use the Infinity Engine again on a game and needed to come up with a game concept that felt different than Baldur's Gate and Torment. So, we thought back to our days of playing pen and paper D&D and the early modules like Tomb of Horrors. This gave us a direction that was distinctly different than that of Torment and Baldur's Gate, which would mean that people would not feel like they were just playing those games again in a different area of the Forgotten Realms."
......................
There are tons of old interviews and comments, and there is no need to post more. Suffice to say that IWD was never intended to be anything more than a dungeon crawler (not that there is anything wrong with that). That's how it was designed, that's how it was received.

It wasn't because the gameplay was different - it was because it was the same, yet of a poorer quality.

Define "poorer quality". As you said, the char system, graphics, engine, dialogues, and quests were the same. So, what part of the game was poor?

 

[Volourn]

"too busy at work:"

Bah. And, you call yourself a hardcore RPGer. The true hardcore never put work before disucssing role-playing games.

And, since when quoting reviewers and Fearqus like they actyally knew what theyw ere talking about come to be 'in vogue' here at the Codex?

Afterall, the reveiwers only write what they are paid to and Feargus is Mr. Slamdunk!

R00fles!

P.S. BG had just as much combat as IWD did. Don't fool yourself in thinking otherwise.