Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

[Cohesion]

What did Lilura say about Morrowind? Lemme guess "casual popamole" or did she like it?

 

[Butter]

What did Lilura say about Morrowind? Lemme guess "casual popamole" or did she like it?

Lilura doesn't like real time games unless they're RTwP.

 

[Cohesion]

What did Lilura say about Morrowind? Lemme guess "casual popamole" or did she like it?

Lilura doesn't like real time games unless they're RTwP.

Not even Gothic?

 

[__scribbles__]

Not even Gothic?

Kinda.

Gothic 1​

Gothic was released by Piranha Bytes for Windows PC in 2001. Gothic predates Morrowind Overrated and is inarguably superior; for example, you could climb ladders! Can you climb ladders in Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim?

But really, the Gothic engine is head and shoulders above Morrowind's cell-based nonsense in that it allows for seamless transition between indoors and outdoors, making exploration of Gothic's penal colony more fun, immersive and memorable than the entire island of Vvardenfell.



The problem with Gothic is that it's just too easy. There is not much of an up-hill battle in the early stages because we can just get NPCs to kill the crap for us. See how I'm just standing there while the NPCs kill the crap for me? I'm earning experience points by doing nothing at all.



So hardcore.

The Gothic economy is also broken because we can just beat up merchants and take all their stuff. Assuming we didn't stick a sword in his back while he was face down in the dirt, the merchant just gets back up and doesn't even care that we just mugged him.

So hardcore. Such reactivity.

Note: If your camera spins in Windows 10, go to the exe properties, Change high DPI settings, Override high DPI scaling behavior.

From what I've said, one may get the impression that I don't like Gothic. I DO like it. I like its visuals, its music, the feel of its world and even its controls (which most players criticize). I just don't pretend that it's a hardcore cRPG. Examples of hardcore cRPGs are Jagged Alliance 2, ToEE and X-COM Apocalypse.

 

[CHEMS]

There are rebalance mods for the expansions, which also reduce the value of DB armor, but the ebony dart is still as expensive as ever lmao.

Yeah, i play with mods that balance the economy and delay the expansion. There's too much OP stuff available right out the bat in Mournhold: amulet of verbosity, daedric wakizashi, a full high ordinator set (if you bypass a very strong lock) etc

 

[JarlFrank]

lol I snagged a daedric daikatana in Narsis (most recent Tamriel Rebuilt release) from a high end artifact shop with a simple telekinesis spell at level 1

But that's fine, it's new content I haven't explored before so whenever I discover something broken, it's actually pretty cool.

 

[Cohesion]

I just don't pretend that it's a hardcore cRPG. Examples of hardcore cRPGs are Jagged Alliance 2, ToEE and X-COM Apocalypse.

Thats our girl all right.

 

[damager]

Temple of elemental evil is a redflag though. I don't believe anybody ever played that unfinished piece of garbage after installing. They just make a character and click around the menu to get browny points.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

He isn't wrong though. Bethesda assumed everyone installing the expansions would do so with their post main quest character. But their content triggers since the start of any playthrough, so at level 1 you get attacked by the DB even though by that time you're a unknown nobody fresh out of the boat.

DB assassins scale to your level, at level 1 they're easily dispatched and their armor not only outclasses anything you'd get in the light armor category but sells for a pretty good amount of money (their ebony dart alone is like 2000 gold a piece).

Preventing the Dark Brotherhood assassin from immediately spawning is as simple as leaving tribunal.esm unchecked in the Morrowind launcher; Bethesda Softworks in 2002-2003 had the reasonable expectation that the people purchasing the two expansions would only turn them on for playthroughs where they already had higher-level characters (certainly Tribunal, though Bloodmoon does contain some lower-level content).

 

[Talby]

Levitation is key.

That single spell adds so much to exploration, combat, and player evolution. The real simplification of the series came when that got removed.

It's a bit too powerful, to be honest.
If you have a Spear or a Bow or Crossbow, you can just kill your enemies without them being able to reach you.
The base spell cost is also quite high, so they definitely wanted to balance it out, I suppose.
But it adds so much to exploration.

Jump is a favorite of mine. Costs less than Levitation, and with high enough magnitude you can propel yourself across huge distances.
One of the first enchanted items I make.

Which they could have done by making it a concentration spell. IE. You can't do anything else while levitating and taking damage can make you lose the spell and fall.

Or any of a number of other ways to balance it.


I don't think they removed it because of balance (in a single player game with much worse balance issues that weren't fixed in oblivion or Skyrim either..) but because they wanted to simplify level design and because they wanted outside interior cells for some cities due to RAM limitations.

It really shouldn't be an issue any more so there shouldn't be an issue reintroducing it for ES VI but given the trajectory of Bethesda I somehow doubt it.

I think levitation being in ES6 is more likely than you think. They more or less re-introduced it with Fallout 4's jetpack power armor upgrade and the jetpacks in Starfield. They don't work exactly like levitation in Morrowind, but they're there.

 

[Jaedar]

He isn't wrong though. Bethesda assumed everyone installing the expansions would do so with their post main quest character. But their content triggers since the start of any playthrough, so at level 1 you get attacked by the DB even though by that time you're a unknown nobody fresh out of the boat.

DB assassins scale to your level, at level 1 they're easily dispatched and their armor not only outclasses anything you'd get in the light armor category but sells for a pretty good amount of money (their ebony dart alone is like 2000 gold a piece).

Preventing the Dark Brotherhood assassin from immediately spawning is as simple as leaving tribunal.esm unchecked in the Morrowind launcher; Bethesda Softworks in 2002-2003 had the reasonable expectation that the people purchasing the two expansions would only turn them on for playthroughs where they already had higher-level characters (certainly Tribunal, though Bloodmoon does contain some lower-level content).

It's not a reasonable expectation, as they check themselves by default. Especially in the various GOTY editions. I can understand why they did this, if someone buys the expansion but then it does nothing because they didn't progress far enough then they will get upset and you will get low sales and bad press. But it's still shit design, and as always we can point at the saviours of mainstream RPGs, fromsoft to see how you do this kind of thing properly. Although they are playing on easy mode since everyone has easy internet access.

I think the console version actually does adjust some things about the expansions (assassins only appear when you reach level 6, allegedly), they just never bothered to patch that into the PC versions.

The problem with tribunal is the assassins, who have op gear (it's the second best light armor in the game, leagues ahead of everything behind it. It's as good as the second best medium armor (not counting indoril) but lighter, and a good amount better than the third best heavy armor set) and who appear automatically and in large enough quantities it breaks the early economy and balance.

Bloodmoon is more subtle, but the hard override on rumours breaks the intended unmarked 'tutorial' quest in Seyda Neen to find the missing tax collector. It also has lesser impact on a lot of other rumour based stuff.

 

[YourMomsHouse]

How does Morrowind hold up today? I last played it ~2 decades ago when my neighbor had an Xbox. I remember enjoying it, but I didn't have that much time to myself because I didn't actually own the game myself. My PC at the time was shit and I had trouble finding a physical copy, this was before the days of Steam and online distribution. I had previously played Daggerfall and then got Oblivion for myself when it came a few years later.

 

[ShiningSoldier]

I think "How does Morrowind hold up today?" is the wrong question.
The RPG genre only degraded since then. So it would be better to ask "how does modern RPGs hold up against Morrowind". And the response is "poorly".

 

[ind33d]

Levitation is key.

That single spell adds so much to exploration, combat, and player evolution. The real simplification of the series came when that got removed.

It's a bit too powerful, to be honest.
If you have a Spear or a Bow or Crossbow, you can just kill your enemies without them being able to reach you.
The base spell cost is also quite high, so they definitely wanted to balance it out, I suppose.
But it adds so much to exploration.

Jump is a favorite of mine. Costs less than Levitation, and with high enough magnitude you can propel yourself across huge distances.
One of the first enchanted items I make.

Which they could have done by making it a concentration spell. IE. You can't do anything else while levitating and taking damage can make you lose the spell and fall.

Or any of a number of other ways to balance it.


I don't think they removed it because of balance (in a single player game with much worse balance issues that weren't fixed in oblivion or Skyrim either..) but because they wanted to simplify level design and because they wanted outside interior cells for some cities due to RAM limitations.

It really shouldn't be an issue any more so there shouldn't be an issue reintroducing it for ES VI but given the trajectory of Bethesda I somehow doubt it.

I think levitation being in ES6 is more likely than you think. They more or less re-introduced it with Fallout 4's jetpack power armor upgrade and the jetpacks in Starfield. They don't work exactly like levitation in Morrowind, but they're there.

levitation in morrowind is not that useful until you combine it with other spells, like levitation+Boots of Blinding Speed turning the game into Microsoft Flight Simulator

 

[CHEMS]

How does Morrowind hold up today? I last played it ~2 decades ago when my neighbor had an Xbox. I remember enjoying it, but I didn't have that much time to myself because I didn't actually own the game myself. My PC at the time was shit and I had trouble finding a physical copy, this was before the days of Steam and online distribution. I had previously played Daggerfall and then got Oblivion for myself when it came a few years later.

The dice based combat in first person might feel dated to modern gamers that grew used to the rpg action genre like Skyrim. The main complain is that old bullshit "i fired an arrow but it didn't hit" stuff

 

[Sigourn]

I wrote this piece on Morrowind six years ago. It could be summarized in just two lines:

• Morrowind quests have no skillchecks, thus bad RPG.
• New Vegas quests have skillchecks, thus good RPG.

But this ignores how skills work in each game.

• Morrowind uses skillchecks to unlock quests (you can't do higher level faction quests without the appropriate build).
• New Vegas uses skillchecks to unlock paths. And in most NV quests, the different paths consist of a few lines of dialogue and slightly better rewards.

Which game is more replayable, then? From my personal experience, Morrowind has a lot more quests and questlines I haven't engaged with. All very different from each other. It also has a better designed map, and character building makes a meaningful difference. In the end, this makes it the superior RPG.

 

[CHEMS]

I wrote this piece on Morrowind six years ago. It could be summarized in just two lines:

• Morrowind quests have no skillchecks, thus bad RPG.
• New Vegas quests have skillchecks, thus good RPG.

But this ignores how skills work in each game.

• Morrowind uses skillchecks to unlock quests (you can't do higher level faction quests without the appropriate build).
• New Vegas uses skillchecks to unlock paths. And in most NV quests, the different paths consist of a few lines of dialogue and slightly better rewards.

Which game is more replayable, then? From my personal experience, Morrowind has a lot more quests and questlines I haven't engaged with. All very different from each other. It also has a better designed map, and character building makes a meaningful difference. In the end, this makes it the superior RPG.

Morrowind demands more thinking from the player. New Vegas takes you by the hand, if you can't hit a check, the game will show you not only that you can't hit a check, but also what skill you need to pass it. This makes the game feel smaller because you'll know the path you could take even if your build isn't compatible with that path. Fallout 2 felt big because everytime you discovered a new check/dialogue due to your stats, it felt like a surprise and left you wondering how many other checks could you find with a different build

 

[Harthwain]

New Vegas takes you by the hand, if you can't hit a check, the game will show you not only that you can't hit a check, but also what skill you need to pass it.

Games with checks need more outcomes that are non-binary. By that I mean that passing a check shouldn't automatically be good for you. New Vegas has some such skill checks, but it really should've leaned more into Disco Elysium-style of passing skill checks, where even a failure produced interesting (or even desirable) outcomes.

 

[CHEMS]

New Vegas takes you by the hand, if you can't hit a check, the game will show you not only that you can't hit a check, but also what skill you need to pass it.

Games with checks need more outcomes that are non-binary. By that I mean that passing a check shouldn't automatically be good for you. New Vegas has some such skill checks, but it really should've leaned more into Disco Elysium-style of passing skill checks, where even a failure produced interesting (or even desirable) outcomes.

I also think that showing the player what he needs to pass a check is bad game design, as it encourages you to distribute skill points to pass checks. Example: early game New Vegas players will put some points in explosives just to pass Easy Pete check for dynamite even though you're not really an explosives build etc... Not showing the requirements for skill checks is more immersive as you'll have consequences for your build choice instead of metagaming your way through

 

[Sigourn]

Moreover, New Vegas gives ample ways for the player to pass those checks, in the way of:

• Stat boosting equipment. Such equipment doesn't work towards advancing through questlines in Morrowind's case, as base attributes are taking into account.
• Magazines.
• Perks that increase bonuses from magazines.

It's as if the devs are handing the good options on a plate.

 

[CHEMS]

Moreover, New Vegas gives ample ways for the player to pass those checks, in the way of:

• Stat boosting equipment. Such equipment doesn't work towards advancing through questlines in Morrowind's case, as base attributes are taking into account.
• Magazines.
• Perks that increase bonuses from magazines.

It's as if the devs are handing the good options on a plate.

Underrail does this too. The player comes across a check, he'll just come back later, when he has points to allocate (on top of whatever bonus he can get from equipment and consumables)

 

[Snufkin]

Temple of elemental evil is a redflag though. I don't believe anybody ever played that unfinished piece of garbage after installing. They just make a character and click around the menu to get browny points.

You realize there is Co8 patch that fixes all that..?

 

[Maxie]

What did Lilura say about Morrowind? Lemme guess "casual popamole" or did she like it?

Lilura doesn't like real time games unless they're RTwP.

opening the inventory pauses morrowind

 

[Old Hans]

How does Morrowind hold up today? I last played it ~2 decades ago when my neighbor had an Xbox. I remember enjoying it, but I didn't have that much time to myself because I didn't actually own the game myself. My PC at the time was shit and I had trouble finding a physical copy, this was before the days of Steam and online distribution. I had previously played Daggerfall and then got Oblivion for myself when it came a few years later.

I played it not too long ago, and it is still enjoyable, but I missed the npc radiant AI. Morrowind reminds me of playing vanilla everquest

 

[damager]

Temple of elemental evil is a redflag though. I don't believe anybody ever played that unfinished piece of garbage after installing. They just make a character and click around the menu to get browny points.

You realize there is Co8 patch that fixes all that..?

All what? Have you played it?