Why Pentiment is an RPG and should be on this forum

[Delphik]

Sawyer claims that Wizardry is not an RPG "anymore". What the hell does "anymore" mean? It sounds very political.

This "definitions change over time" horseshit belongs in poltiics. It belongs to people who debate whether there exists more than two genders or not. Miss me with that shit.

I have played Pillars and followed Sawyer for a long time. He literally lost his compass. Both in a sense of RPG design, and as a person. Dude is a hipster who was driven insane by politics and twitter. He is probably vaxxed too.

EDIT: Why am I not surprised.



What a tool.

Soyer is a certified based and red-pilled vaxmaxxer.

 

[WhiteShark]

immersive sims are rpgs?

Let us use immersive sims for analogy.

I'll reiterate on the off-chance that you are not trolling: a gameplay element can be core to a genre whether or not the player is forced to engage with it.

 

[Vic]

let's explain why circles are round by using a square as an example.

 

[Vic]

a gameplay element can be core to a genre whether or not the player is forced to engage with it.

if the player is not forced to engage with it then it's hardly a core element of the genre

 

[Delphik]

1. Character creation has some form of in-game consequences
2. Character(s) are able to explore over terrain, water, space, etc. ('explore' refers to free movement of main character(s))
3. The game has some form of puzzle solving, which is resolved through combat, problem resolution, or some choice made by the player
4. A choice made by the player alters the narrative, or some other significant part of the game (an item is found or lost, stats or skills are gained or lost, different ending, etc.)
5. Character(s) interact with NPCs in some form of dialogue which have in-game consequences depending on what the character(s) say.
6. Optional quests (defined here as some kind of task made available after the game has started, and which can be resolved by the player before the game ends, but is not required to complete the game) are available.

Arbitrary threshold of 'RPG'

1. Not an RPG (7 or less RPG elements)

Just how many does it have, anyway~

I hate and despise your stupid list and I believe it should be chucked in a garbage can, but I finished Pentiment and it has the 6 elements I left in the quote.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

a gameplay element can be core to a genre whether or not the player is forced to engage with it.

if the player is not forced to engage with it then it's hardly a core element of the genre

You can play Fallout without wasting time talking and kill everyone or you can play it without killing anyone.
So what's the core element here

 

[Vic]

it's not talking or killing, I've posted what makes Fallout great to me before, just gonna copy-pasta it:

Fallout is my most re-played cRPG, closely followed by BG. Part of it is that it's so short but I think the real reason why I keep coming back to it, and New Vegas is the atmosphere.

... [Fallout] is great because of its atmosphere. I don't like dark games, never played Elden Ring for that matter, and even STALKER is something I don't enjoy. But Fallout, man it just has something, and I'm pretty sure it's the atmosphere.

The music, sound effects, animations, voice acting and the talking head puppets. It's just great.

New Vegas was able to capture a part of it, not quite as good as the original, but it makes up for it with a moddable engine.

And how I personally define a genre:

I define games based on the experience I have while playing the game. The experience I have from playing RPGs is unique to any other genre. The most important aspect of an RPG is not XP or combat or loot to me, but being isekai'd to another world and given player agency in a reactive world that acknowledges my actions while making progress through a central campaign. That is what constitutes playing a role, a role in a fantasy world, and given the freedom and feedback to act out that role. "The Player" is not a role. A thief who can sneak, backstab for critical damage, steal things, find and disarm traps and pass dialogue skill checks because he's a charismatic silver-tongued devil, that is a role.

So core elements of an RPG might be:
- player agency in a reactive world, might go hand in hand with ability to role play
- a central campaign, even if it's just a dungeon you're trying to escape from
- character progression, which is mostly tied to combat, but I don't believe it has to, to me Disco Elysium is still an RPG despite what the codex thinks

In general tho, I think the question "what is an RPG?" can be answered if first the player asks himself what is it that he wants from an RPG, and then does the game in question deliver on that. For me, there is a certain "RPG experience" that I want from my RPGs, and DE delivered on that.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I personally

I don't believe

to me

Ah, so the personal evaluation of these quantities drive you towards an individual assessment of the elements of an RPG irrespective of preexisting discourse to the contrary.

Spoiler

"It's just like, your opinion man."

 

[Vic]

yes, because if it was objectively clear what makes an RPG we wouldn't be having this discussion.

that's like, my whole point, it depends on the player, after all 40% of the codex considers DE to be an RPG, me included, why's that? Because of individual differences in what is considered an "RPG experience".

While having this discussion, I went on to a wargaming board, and suprise, there they had the same discussion of "what is a wargame", I think these things are quite subjective.

 

[WhiteShark]

In general tho, I think the question "what is an RPG?" can be answered if first the player asks himself what is it that he wants from an RPG, and then does the game in question deliver on that. For me, there is a certain "RPG experience" that I want from my RPGs, and DE delivered on that.

I see now that there was never any point in discussing this with you.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

if it was objectively clear what makes an RPG

Which would seem to be of scarce consequence when:

And how I personally define a genre:

 

[Vic]

ah, you guys are fast, I edited my post above to include:

that's like, my whole point, it depends on the player, after all 40% of the codex considers DE to be an RPG, me included, why's that? Because of individual differences in what is considered an "RPG experience".

While having this discussion, I went on to a wargaming board, and surprise, there they had the same discussion of "what is a wargame", I think these things are quite subjective.

This is why I also think that we need a more granular definition for RPGs and not just "it has combat" or it's "small-scale wargames".

 

[Serus]

My PC is also old: my CPU is from 2011 and my GPU from 2019, and I still use Windows 7.
And yet, I can play pretty much everything I'm interested in.
Games are very, very cheap during Steam and GOG deep sales every winter and summer. Sometimes I can get games for 90% off and below 10€ in price.

Metoo!
I have an early 2010s computer with W7. And i agree about games. There were literally two games so far that i wanted to play and couldn't (one is the King's Arthur game) but since my backlog is dozens of games long anyway, it doesn't matter.

Oh well, it isn't on topic but I wanted to show off that i'm as hardcore as Jarl.

And it still is a better RPG that most of the shit that gets released those days.

But does it tell us something about DE or about the shit? You know, the less smelly shit is still shit paradox.

 

[Vic]

This is why I also think that we need a more granular definition for RPGs and not just "it has combat" or it's "small-scale wargames".

So maybe to answer the question "what are the core elements of Fallout" ERYFKRAD, we can maybe first define a sub-genre called Fallout-like, then we could be more precise in identifying what the core elements of Fallout-likes are, because they will be different from Wizardry-likes.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Problem is "making the story seem deep and abstract" is basic modus operandi of suckee writers~ Doing it that way will obscure their level of writings.

H.P. Lovecraft.

Don't forget that in order to be a deep writer, one has to try to write something deep. Sure, most writers have a cargo cult mentality and end up failing, but giving up before even making the attempt is an attitude worthy of more scorn than failure.

immersive sims are rpgs?

Some of them, yes.

let's explain why circles are round by using a square as an example.

I see you missed Calculus I.

 

[bionicman]

~Of CYOAs and RPGs~

In times long past,
a game was made
Whose worth did far surpass the rest
For in its world, a tale was laid
Of characters complex, who passed the test

A dialogue system, unique and rare
Gave players choice, a rare delight
To shape the story, beyond compare
And in the game, their own path to write

A rich and atmospheric world was spun
Where fully realized characters did dwell
A story, well-written, second to none
With branching paths, and endings to foretell

So 'tis said, in ancient tongue and pen
That Disco Elysium, a game of fame
Did rise above, to rule again
As the greatest RPG of all, its name

In years gone by, another game was made
Whose worth did far surpass the previous one
A title, Pentiment, it was called
A game by Josh, that passed the test

Its story rich, with characters bold
A world immersive, deep and vast
Players did revel, young and old
In choices made, their paths contrast

But alas, the game did face a fate
Of misnomer, a cruel twist of fate
For though its worth did far outweigh
The title "RPG" did elate

Instead, it was called a Choose Your Own
Adventure, plain and simple, true
But those who played, did not bemoan
For in their hearts, they knew

That Pentiment, a game sublime
Was more than just a simple choice
But a true RPG, in every time
A game that earned its rightful voice

So though Josh's name may fade to dust
His legacy, forever bound
For Pentiment, a game just and just
Remains the greatest, all around

 

[laclongquan]

Problem is "making the story seem deep and abstract" is basic modus operandi of suckee writers~ Doing it that way will obscure their level of writings.

H.P. Lovecraft.

Don't forget that in order to be a deep writer, one has to try to write something deep. Sure, most writers have a cargo cult mentality and end up failing, but giving up before even making the attempt is an attitude worthy of more scorn than failure.

I dont know what you are trying to say, really. I repeat: "making the story seem deep and abstract" is basic modus operandi of suckee writers. Dont take out Lovecraft to hide behind. Just because Lovecraft can do deep and abstract DOESNT MEAN your suckee writers doing deep and abstract will be Lovecraft-level. OR can hide their suckiness.

The two things are different and VERY noticeable, as noticeable as Lovecraft and a suckee writer.

 

[ArchAngel]

Is this the long awaited Sawyer masterpiece RPG in middle ages or is he making some other game?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Is this the long awaited Sawyer masterpiece RPG in middle ages or is he making some other game?

Neither. This is the game Sawyer made, and it is far from a masterpiece.

 

[ropetight]

Is this the long awaited Sawyer masterpiece RPG in middle ages or is he making some other game?

Neither. This is the game Sawyer made, and it is far from a masterpiece.

Zero Punctuation can be tedious or overwhelming, but makes good point how even choices in this CYOA-wannabe don't really matter.
Difference between CYOA and Pentiment is similar to difference between Doom and rail shooter.