Why wasn't Pathfinder: Kingmaker turn-based from the beggining? A long-ass question

[Tim the Bore]

Owlcat recently decided to add turn-based mode to their game. This made me thinking: why wasn’t it designed to be this way in the first place? We all know that the official reasoning for it was so that the game could have more enemies along the way, but that explanation doesn’t make sense. There is a lot of reasons why designing the game toward turn-based combat would not only allow the game to reach its full potential, but it’d also prevented some technical issues as well. Some of the reasons why:

1) This one is rather obvious, but: P:K’s mechanics are made for turn-based combat system. Generally speaking, the game is fairly complicated, with lots and lots of rules, exceptions to that rules, statistics, feats, relations between that feats, various variables etc. That’s because originally this system was designed towards more strategic and tactical oriented approach. Direct fighting with enemies was only a small part of the overall combat, which also included proper use of equipment, buffs, team-work, accurate builds and so on. You have a lot of options because you are allow to resolve issues in different manners.

All of that is turned to be dysfunctional if the game is in real time. That’s because real time means: fast-paced and reflex oriented. Which makes sense if you’re doing an action game, but it’s ridiculous in a title with more robust mechanics, since you can either never interact with them properly (because you’re in a hurry) or you can pause the game every two seconds, which is the opposite of fast-paced, reflex oriented experience.

P: K is the worst of both worlds: you're expected to read all the information about its mechanics and understood them, but then you can never really utilize them in a satisfactory manner – combat in real time is always clumsy as hell. There is a reason why Diablo didn’t had 50+ rules about swinging your sword – it would slower the game and that’s the opposite of what Blizzard was trying to achieve. In P: K all the strengths of the original system are turned into weakness.

2) Turn-based would mean – less fighting. The game has a huge amount of trash mobs. They serve two purposes: to prepare you for a boss and to drain your resources. The first one is obvious, the second is there so that the game could test your strategic abilities. How well can you handle the precious resources that you have? Are you gonna blow them all on one small enemy? Are you gonna be too greedy, which will put your team in danger and will take your healing spells, costing you much more than it should? Again, smart management of your resources and time is an essential part of the experience.

Right now, however, it’s all wrong – there is a lot of thrash mobs along the journey, but they never really pose any threat. You don’t have to use your magic or utilize some buffs, because they are too easy to really require that. And when facing a boss, you have access to every single spells, scrolls, potion and whatnot; so you don’t have to pay attention to your resources, which was the whole point in the first place. That also means that your mages and priests are completely useless in a majority of fights, but then are completely mandatory when it comes to the challenging ones. So trash mobs don’t serve their purpose (spare for a few).

Now, if the game would be designed toward turn-based oriented experience, it would solve all those issues. Since fights in turn-based system tends to be rather slow, you can’t create too many of them. Which means you have to compensate and make them somewhat harder. Which means that they may represent some kind of danger for the player, which means he will have to use some of his resources (and the game is less repetitive). And then everything works as intended. There is a reason why some spells are amazing and some are just okay – so that you wouldn’t be forced to use the best ones on some basic enemies. Therefore, the game is testing your ability to recognize the quality of particular spells, rewarding you for a proper understanding of its mechanics and rules. This is obviously connected to the first point.

3) From a technical point of view, the game has a problem with its performance and the size of its save files. And one of the factors that contributed to that situation is the huge amount of hostile NPCs and their equipment. The game clearly struggles when the whole map is covered with 40+ something enemies, all of them possessing a shield, an armor, a sword, a scroll and some magical rings. Having less enemies would help solving that issue significantly.

4) The game has a problem with item bloat. Simply put, there is way too much magical equipment everywhere. Items that grant you +4 bonuses to strength, constitution and dexterity should not be just some crap laying around or being sold by a couple of basic vendors. But the game wants to reward you for every fight, so it has to keep giving you new stuff. Again: less enemies would fix that issue, making the loot precious and rare, rather than mundane and common. It would also allow Owlcat to balance the game a little bit better.

5) It would be easier to port this game for consoles. Pretty self-explanatory.

Considering all of this: what gives? Why was this game designed to be in real time? Was it just a nostalgia? Did they try to distinguish themselves from Larian? Were they afraid that people wouldn’t like slower game? Given its state (its difficulty, complexity and time-limits for example), Owlcat clearly didn’t care about catering to broad audience, so I don’t think that this was the motivation. The way things are, the game is good, but it could've been great. Why?


Tl;dr – the title. Told you it's long.

 

[Voids]

I think it was at least partially because of nostalgia/marketing. Released during the time of the isometric rpg renaissance, rtwp is just considered "standard" for those types of games in the eyes of many consumers.

But the biggest reason is: fuck you, that's why.

 

[mondblut]

Because it peddled itself to baldurscucks. Now that Larian bent them over and had its way with their butts, it's safe to say RTWP a long-overdue goodbye and good riddance.

 

[Sentinel]

I think I remember the devs saying they're faggots who prefer RTwP. But idk if that was for baldur's gate cred or if they actually prefer that abomination.

 

[DeepOcean]

Because they were conservative and thought it was safer to go the IE games route, now that it is proven that a RPG being in TB has zero negative effect on its sales and RTwP doesnt boost sales, RTwP faggits arent as relevant anymore as the market changed and attending niches became profitable, so you dont need to make a game worse for action fans to enjoy it anymore.

 

[Riel]

Because they were conservative and thought it was safer to go the IE games route, now that it is proven that a RPG being in TB has zero negative effect on its sales and RTwP doesnt boost sales, RTwP faggits arent as relevant anymore as the market changed and attending niches became profitable, so you dont need to make a game worse for action fans to enjoy it anymore.

The thing is that while Advanced D&D is originally turn based as well it has like 10% required player input during combat compared Pathfinder, only spells and some advanced powers have to be called for, the rest of the game is basically clicking an enemy to auto attack.

So I quite agree with the OP that using Pathfinder in a RTwP system is kind of dumbass.

As soon as the turn based mod was out I never went back to RTwP but the game being designed with that in mind had very bad consequences: excess of filler combat and it became easier by an order of magnitude.

Given that turn based seems to be optional I don't think any of the two previous problems is going to be addressed. The game should have been designed with turn based from the beginning if it is to use Pathfinder system.

 

[gurugeorge]

All of that is turned to be dysfunctional if the game is in real time. That’s because real time means: fast-paced and reflex oriented.

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

I do agree about the item bloat point though - it's true that RTwP goes with being able to have more trash fights, which means more loot, which means more of it is bound to be inconsequential, and only results in the player having huge amounts of money from selling it.

Both RTwP and Turn-based have their charms and drawbacks. Generally speaking, I think the advantage of turn-based is that you can have more intricate simulation, as more simulating elements can be abstracted and reckoned into the gameplay (i.e. into your calculations and tactics as a player) in a way that would probably feel too fussy in RTwP.

RTwP can be more immediate-feeling and immersive (in the "being there"/presence sense) because your companions can feel more like independent beings with their own minds, to whom you're giving orders in the field (as opposed to puppets whose every move you're controlling from a meta perspective). But on the other hand, that does mean the developer has to give them convincing AI, otherwise the illusion is broken (whereas with turn-based you're in control of absolutely everything all the time, and it's all you vs. the enemy AI).

I really like both at different times, and I love the fact that you can switch between modes in PF:K. But PF:K's turn-based mode is fairly rudimentary, and I gather the reason developers don't offer that facility more often is that it means a whole extra workload, with different kinds of AI required for each mode, and developers may not have the time or the resources, or feel that the ROI is worth it.

 

[ADULF HITLOR FAN KLUB]

Why wasn't Pathfinder: Kingmaker turn-based from the beggining

Probably because turn-based mode in Kingmaker is an awfully slow and repetitive slog, because the game was not designed to be played that way.

Owlcat obviously only felt obligated to add it when the console version was announced (turn-based is much easier to play than RTwP with a controller), so I guess they just underestimated how many PC gamers enjoy repeatedly watching repetitive combat animations for every single action.

 

[Faarbaute]

The cynic in me would say it's because they don't really have a vision of their own. That they were just cargo culting a previous design.

It's possible that they changed their minds on TB on its own merits and that they had creative reasons for why they went with RTwP over TB initially, but that seems unlikely to me.

What really changed is, TB became cool.

 

[Cryomancer]

Due infinity engine traditionalism.

Sadly, most CRPG fans din't experienced good turn based games like ToEE, Gold Box and the Dark Sun games... Many CRPG fans falsely associate TB with children with sword saving the world and Larian games.

so I guess they just underestimated how many PC gamers enjoy repeatedly watching repetitive combat animations for every single action.

You know, you can speed up the animation up to 10x.

 

[LannTheStupid]

If turn-based mode does not have interruptions then it is a cheat. I do not apply cheats in my single player games because reasons.

 

[J1M]

TLDR: The reason is the financial success of Baldur's Gate 2.

 

[Orud]

What J1M said, along with that it took until Divinity : Original Sin 2's financial success to prove that there's a viable mainstream market for turn-based RPG's.

 

[Nano]

Divinity : Original Sin 2's financial success to prove that there's a viable mainstream market for turn-based RPG's.

D:OS *1* proved that in 2014. I find it hard to believe Owlcat chose RTWP for financial reasons when D:OS1 already showed up PoE1.

 

[Desiderius]

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

Once you figure out that these TB uber alles tards don't even understand how to play RTwP dismissing them out of hand becomes much easier.

Which is good because they love to listen to themselves bloviate ad nauseum. The entire thread is non-stop retardation because the premises are counterfactual. TB was never not popular. People make RTwP games because they can on computers and they're better.

 

[smaug]

Owlcat is retarded. Maybe they’ll learn after WOTR but I doubt it.

 

[smaug]

D&D is made for TB (and or phase-based for OG autists), so I wish they would just use it and quit RTWP. I believe they did a poll and TB won, who knows.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I wonder how many TB proponents can finish one of XCOM-likes on one of the highest 2 difficulty levels. Because failure to recognize the importance of interrupts as the simulation of simultaneous time flow reveals some serious brain deficiency.

 

[Mauman]

Wasn't there a poll that they took to determine this and RTwP came out on top? I might be misremembering this, but I thought that was the case.

I prefer Turn based myself.

 

[Saravan]

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

Once you figure out that these TB uber alles tards don't even understand how to play RTwP dismissing them out of hand becomes much easier.

Which is good because they love to listen to themselves bloviate ad nauseum. The entire thread is non-stop retardation because the premises are counterfactual. TB was never not popular. People make RTwP games because they can on computers and they're better.

The retarded takes never stop.

The second any encounter becomes even remotely dangerous people either switch to TB mode or pause-unpause for 6 seconds, pause-unpause for 6 seconds-x10, add in a few extra pauses too to handle swift actions and aiming aoe spells. Such a wasteful system that a game which would do the encounter design from the start with TB mode in mind would be much better. Combat takes zero advantage of verticality as well as it lends itself poorly to RtwP.

There are a bunch of filler encounters and tiny locations in Pathfinder Kingmaker that are just completely unnecessary and have no purpose besides being just filler content for RtwP. This content is just mindless bloat and had the game been designed with TB in mind from the start it would be a lot more focused and tight game that is not unnecessarily long for the sake of being long. The philosophy behind RtwP affects dungeon design as well, turning them into stupid gauntlets.

You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

 

[Orud]

D:OS *1* proved that in 2014. I find it hard to believe Owlcat chose RTWP for financial reasons when D:OS1 already showed up PoE1.

DOS1 only proved there was a small market for it, as far as I can tell it sold less or the same as PoE1. After a few months, DOS1 sold about 150.000 units. In less than 2 months, DOS2 sold more than a million. DOS2 made a lot of developers turn their head, DOS1 was just more of the same.

 

[LannTheStupid]

pause-unpause for 6 seconds, pause-unpause for 6 seconds-x10

Exactly. That is why it is called "Real Time with PAUSE". There is even an autopause setting "pause after every turn", which is those 6 seconds. On the side note: have you ever tried ion dodging in FTL?

It is kind of peculiar to read "mindless" from such a person.

 

[Desiderius]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes any time you like.

One of us hasn't discovered the 'v" button or how to play well enough to fly through most encounters.

That's you, not me dumbass.

 

[Desiderius]

You can tell it's a TB vs RTwP thread by all the clueless retards standing in a hole trying to condescend to people who actually know how to play both.

You're so frustrated because you're trying to look down on people who are above you. Learning from better players is fun. You should try it. Nothing I enjoy more.

 

[Saravan]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.