Why wasn't Pathfinder: Kingmaker turn-based from the beggining? A long-ass question

[Mortmal]

absurd npc stat blocks

Another victim of spider swarms? Nice to meet you.

"AI improved" has the implication that there was any AI beyond "attack the closest target and sometimes cast a spell" to begin with. Their solution to the lack of any AI was to heavily buff all the stats across the board so fights were challenging.

Have you played the beta with the setting that expands enemy A.I. enabled? I have. Not much, but it was painful (I am not Desiderius , after all).

It wasnt only the spiders , many monsters had bloated stats, and the worse was arriving at pitax with guards and mega AC.

 

[LannTheStupid]

guards and mega AC.

Exactly after Regongar gains the Magus' weapon buff that negates the armor. At least he has it if you're not too energetic wish splashes.

 

[Desiderius]

absurd npc stat blocks

Another victim of spider swarms? Nice to meet you.

"AI improved" has the implication that there was any AI beyond "attack the closest target and sometimes cast a spell" to begin with. Their solution to the lack of any AI was to heavily buff all the stats across the board so fights were challenging.

Have you played the beta with the setting that expands enemy A.I. enabled? I have. Not much, but it was painful (I am not Desiderius , after all).

Free AoOs? Don’t mind if I do, especially with Ever Ready.

 

[Mortmal]

What Guards with mega AC? The ones I was beating by forty in all my tests? Do you phaggots use any abilities at all or do you splash so many classes you never get any?

Stack those Retarded emotes ten high. You’ve earned them.

Release days , bugged, not the version you played....

 

[Desiderius]

Fixed.

I’m not (just) being a dick here. Even before I had any idea what I was doing I did fine on Normal. I still don’t really understand what the PnPers are talking about.

 

[Shadenuat]

PnP's don't have to be good at the game, even in number crunchy version of spinoff of number crunchy d&d, it's simply not the main (or only) point of the game. To be fair to them the amount of supplement rules you need to remember in pnp is absurd; partly it's why in tabletop you tend to meet people that claim competetive level and 20 years of play, but then don't remember basic rules, english language, and what they even written into their lists (based on my 40k experiences).

 

[Orud]

Dude, you're wrong. Let it go. Were you around in 2014? D:OS1 wasn't considered some cute indie game back then, it was a big deal for the genre. By the time Kingmaker's development started (mid-2016), RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").

If it was so big, why were they turned down by WoTC to do BG3 after D:OS1? It wasn't until D:OS2's was in the end stages of early access that they were asked by WoTC send in a first proposition, and a revised second draft after D:OS2's launch. You also have Josh Sawyer talking about D:OS2 specifically when reviewing why PoE2 failed, etc... .

Again, games made to be spiritual successors are made out of passion for those games and/or because they believe there's a market for it. You don't abandon that path simply because you had a change of heart.

 

[Desiderius]

Dude, you're wrong. Let it go. Were you around in 2014? D:OS1 wasn't considered some cute indie game back then, it was a big deal for the genre. By the time Kingmaker's development started (mid-2016), RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").

If it was so big, why were they turned down by WoTC to do BG3 after D:OS1? It wasn't until D:OS2's was in the end stages of early access that they were asked by WoTC send in a first proposition, and a revised second draft after D:OS2's launch. You also have Josh Sawyer talking about D:OS2 specifically when reviewing why PoE2 failed, etc... .

Again, games made to be spiritual successors are made out of passion for those games and/or because they believe there's a market for it. You don't abandon that path simply because you had a change of heart.

Because WotC has had their heads up their asses for the better part of this millennium now and/or since they sold out to Hasbro.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Dude, you're wrong. Let it go. Were you around in 2014? D:OS1 wasn't considered some cute indie game back then, it was a big deal for the genre. By the time Kingmaker's development started (mid-2016), RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").

If it was so big, why were they turned down by WoTC to do BG3 after D:OS1? It wasn't until D:OS2's was in the end stages of early access that they were asked by WoTC send in a first proposition, and a revised second draft after D:OS2's launch. You also have Josh Sawyer talking about D:OS2 specifically when reviewing why PoE2 failed, etc... .

Again, games made to be spiritual successors are made out of passion for those games and/or because they believe there's a market for it. You don't abandon that path simply because you had a change of heart.

they were likely turned down because sword coast legends was in development which would have stepped heavily on BG3's toes

 

[Mortmal]

Dude, you're wrong. Let it go. Were you around in 2014? D:OS1 wasn't considered some cute indie game back then, it was a big deal for the genre. By the time Kingmaker's development started (mid-2016), RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").

If it was so big, why were they turned down by WoTC to do BG3 after D:OS1? It wasn't until D:OS2's was in the end stages of early access that they were asked by WoTC send in a first proposition, and a revised second draft after D:OS2's launch. You also have Josh Sawyer talking about D:OS2 specifically when reviewing why PoE2 failed, etc... .

Again, games made to be spiritual successors are made out of passion for those games and/or because they believe there's a market for it. You don't abandon that path simply because you had a change of heart.

Because WotC has had their heads up their asses for the better part of this millennium now and/or since they sold out to Hasbro.

Indeed they are but this a tough job , really tough job, i dont envy them . How are you selling more d&d books and new rulesets when the previous ones are fine, the competion did better with your own ruleset, and there's so many OSR clones.

 

[Desiderius]

Same way they sold a gorillion Magic cards. But yeah a lot harder fighting thru the suits who all want their cut.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Dude, you're wrong. Let it go. Were you around in 2014? D:OS1 wasn't considered some cute indie game back then, it was a big deal for the genre. By the time Kingmaker's development started (mid-2016), RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").

If it was so big, why were they turned down by WoTC to do BG3 after D:OS1? It wasn't until D:OS2's was in the end stages of early access that they were asked by WoTC send in a first proposition, and a revised second draft after D:OS2's launch. You also have Josh Sawyer talking about D:OS2 specifically when reviewing why PoE2 failed, etc... .

Again, games made to be spiritual successors are made out of passion for those games and/or because they believe there's a market for it. You don't abandon that path simply because you had a change of heart.

Because WotC has had their heads up their asses for the better part of this millennium now and/or since they sold out to Hasbro.

Indeed they are but this a tough job , really tough job, i dont envy them . How are you selling more d&d books and new rulesets when the previous ones are fine, the competion did better with your own ruleset, and there's so many OSR clones.

easy
call them racist for not playing your game

 

[ADULF HITLOR FAN KLUB]

TB mode in Pathfinder turns 50-80hs long game to 200hs long game. It sucks nigger dick and I'd only use it during difficult fights. Turn based mode? more like padding mode.

Correct.

Playing Pathfinder in turn-based mode is an awfully slow and repetitive slog, because it was not designed to be played that way, but some people apparently have a lot of time to waste, because they repeatedly claim that watching repetitive combat animations for 80 to 120 hours is what makes turn-based mode in P:K vastly superior.

Spoiler

RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").

Square-Enix is doing it. Final Fantasy 7 Remake is RTwP (and the combat in that game is vastly superior to the trash combat in Inquisition).

 

[Azdul]

Instead of introducing TB to RTwP games we should do the opposite. I want to see RTwP in Xenonauts 2, Underrail, Colony Ship, and others.

It's not as stupid as it sounds.

In wargaming turn-based systems encourage unnatural behaviors like giving orders to each unit each turn, rapidly changing direction of the unit each turn, ignoring momentum and consistency of command. They are good enough in wargames when 1 turn = 1 week - but start to look stupid when one turn simulates shorter and shorter time periods.

To combat this - 'serious' table-top turn-based wargaming systems get more and more complicated. At some point you start to wonder - if it takes 3 weeks to play through campaign that took 3 weeks during WW2 - isn't it a 'real-time' system in a way ?

Of course introducing RTwP in D&D game won't automatically improve it - but in new system designed from scratch for RTwP could open up tactical possibilities well beyond D&D - through simulating more aspects of the world instead of tons of arbitrary rules.

 

[Joggerino]

Yeah, i agree completely. And turn based combat is more prevalent in RPGs because it's easier than RTwP to balance and implement. It's all part of the decline. RTwP is the pinnacle of RPG combat but it needs talent to do it right.

 

[Fedora Master]

Because the way its encounters are designed the game would take an additional 300 hours in TB mode.

 

[Harthwain]

In wargaming turn-based systems encourage unnatural behaviors like giving orders to each unit each turn, rapidly changing direction of the unit each turn, ignoring momentum and consistency of command. They are good enough in wargames when 1 turn = 1 week - but start to look stupid when one turn simulates shorter and shorter time periods.

Unnatural behaviours are the inherent part of gaming systems. You can break unnatural behaviors by introducing features such as the possibility of having couriers killed or delayed, units misunderstanding their orders, units unwilling to follow orders due to low morale and giving various penalties to units who need to adjust to their new direction to simulate the loss of momentum, etc.

To combat this - 'serious' table-top turn-based wargaming systems get more and more complicated.

In wargaming this can complicate a session, because you need to make sure all rules are followed, but in a video game the game is supposed to keep check of all of that for you so that isn't really a problem (unless we're talking about the processing power needed to run it all).

At some point you start to wonder - if it takes 3 weeks to play through campaign that took 3 weeks during WW2 - isn't it a 'real-time' system in a way ?

Just because a turn-based campaign takes as much real time as the actual WW2 campaign it doesn't really change the fact you're playing a turn-based system. Terms like "turn-based and "real-time" both depict the flow of time, not the duration. Unless you're actually doing everything in real time, but that means both sides are doing their own thing at the same time, similarly how actual wargame exercises are done by the military in real life.

 

[zapotec]

Because in real time with pause the atrocious AI is less noticeable, that's why they also had to change the sneak attack criteria and stat bloats the NPCs.

Its only "saving grace" it's probably the huge amount of builds that allow people with autistm post screenshoot with "hurr durrr 500000000000000 sneak attack"

 

[Raghar]

Indeed they are but this a tough job , really tough job, i dont envy them . How are you selling more d&d books and new rulesets when the previous ones are fine, the competion did better with your own ruleset, and there's so many OSR clones.

RPG books are special stuff that should be distributed freely without copyright. They don't have to make money from PnP rulebooks. They could become company that holds rights to various fantasy art and prints cheap and quality art books. They could write decent TV novels. I remember I was able to write decent fantasy/political satire TV series. I'd have to get someone who would write 90 percent of dialogue, but the punch of proper story was there.

Original PnP with rules was for fun, and selling books was basically to recover costs from publishing and distribution, not to earn money. But, for some reason that activity moved to area of making profit from book publishing.

 

[Desiderius]

Because in real time with pause the atrocious AI is less noticeable, that's why they also had to change the sneak attack criteria and stat bloats the NPCs.

Its only "saving grace" it's probably the huge amount of builds that allow people with autistm post screenshoot with "hurr durrr 500000000000000 sneak attack"

Bloated Stats hurr, durr, plus the dice are loaded!

Kobolds! With 29 AC! How am I supposed to hit that? And I even had the perfect build!



I'm the one who says that Sneaks are overrated dumbass. Can you tell us all exactly where the butthurt is coming from? Because that's like a record amount.

 

[zapotec]

It occurred to me that game really sucks during my third playthrough, i noticed that i only had fun during character creation and the levelling up screen, the rest of game is a slog through unchallenging encounters and a sort of facebook kingdom app.

 

[Desiderius]

It occurred to me that game really sucks during my third playthrough, i noticed that i only had fun during character creation and the levelling up screen, the rest of game is a slog through unchallenging encounters and a sort of facebook kingdom app.

I can see that. When I got to that point I started doing the reloading/respeccing a late save to try out different classes and Varnhold/Depths/CotW.

Once I figured out that most splashes are counterproductive that kind of opened up some new things to try too. But yeah by that point sometimes I gave into temptation and used Story to really fast forward especially since I never found a buff manager I really liked.

Wrath has a lot more going on.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Fixed.

I’m not (just) being a dick here. Even before I had any idea what I was doing I did fine on Normal. I still don’t really understand what the PnPers are talking about.

Isn't normal easier than what the difficulty is supposed to be in PnP? Enemies get a damage debuff and reduced crit damage. If you wanted to play PnP difficuty, you'd play challenging but get rid of the enemy stat buff.