Why wasn't Pathfinder: Kingmaker turn-based from the beggining? A long-ass question

[Nano]

DOS1 only proved there was a small market for it, as far as I can tell it sold less or the same as PoE1.

False. D:OS reached 500k sales in three months, it took PoE seven months to reach that.

DOS2 made a lot of developers turn their head, DOS1 was just more of the same.

This is some revisionist history. More of the same of what, exactly? How many games like D:OS1 were released back in the early/mid 2010s?

 

[Tim the Bore]

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

Yeah, I don't know why I phrased it like that. I guess what I meant was that the RTwP feels faster than TB - but then slows you down with its rules, much more suitable for TB combat system. So the experience is kinda schizophrenic to me. But who knows at this point, it should be obvious that I can't write for shit anyway.

 

[Desiderius]

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

Yeah, I don't know why I phrased it like that. I guess what I meant was that the RTwP feels faster than TB - but then slows you down with its rules, much more suitable for TB combat system. So the experience is kinda schizophrenic to me. But who knows at this point, it should be obvious that I can't write for shit anyway.

You write well. RT even with Pause on things like Age of Empires was always schizophrenic to me too, which was why I still prefer Civ.

Combat simulators are a different animal and the good ones can be enjoyed either way if one takes the time to master the dynamics. The dividing line for me is if there’s stuff happening in RT off-screen I don’t like it even with Pause. If everything is in front of you then the verisimilitude beats the somewhat attenuated capacity to control everything.

In some sense that attenuation contributes to the verisimilitude itself in a pleasurably organic way that adds to the challenge non-arbitrarily.

 

[Mortmal]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

 

[Joggerino]

Because TB combat is slow and retarded. RTwP is superior in every way imaginable.

 

[Harthwain]

1) This one is rather obvious, but: P:K’s mechanics are made for turn-based combat system.

Yes, but the whole RTwP is an interpretation of the turn-based rules. What the game does is translating these rules into real time. You can read about how it was done in Baldur's Gate in the manual:

https://archive.org/details/Baldurs_Gate_II_Shadow_of_Amn_Manual/page/n71/mode/2up

Generally speaking, the game is fairly complicated, with lots and lots of rules, exceptions to that rules, statistics, feats, relations between that feats, various variables etc.

There are still plenty of rules you need to know in order to grasp how it all works.

That’s because originally this system was designed towards more strategic and tactical oriented approach. Direct fighting with enemies was only a small part of the overall combat, which also included proper use of equipment, buffs, team-work, accurate builds and so on. You have a lot of options because you are allow to resolve issues in different manners.

All of that is turned to be dysfunctional if the game is in real time. That’s because real time means: fast-paced and reflex oriented.

What real time changes is the way how combat is resolved: simultaneously rather than one-by-one. The tactical elements are still there: what spells, abilities or items to use, on whom and when. Calling RTwP "reflex oriented" only makes it sound like you aren't aware of the pause button. It would indeed devolve into a click-fest where all that matters is who is the faster clicking monkey (and the AI is always going to be faster), but the existence of the pause button makes the game more tactical as you can pause at any moment, consider your options and then give adequate orders.

Which makes sense if you’re doing an action game, but it’s ridiculous in a title with more robust mechanics, since you can either never interact with them properly (because you’re in a hurry) or you can pause the game every two seconds, which is the opposite of fast-paced, reflex oriented experience.

Is the game too fast or too slow then? At this point you sound like you're trying to eat cookie and have it too. I guess Dark Envoy has the a perfect solution - it will allow you to slow down time as much as you want, so you can adjust the flow of time to your individual liking:

Spoiler

P: K is the worst of both worlds: you're expected to read all the information about its mechanics and understood them, but then you can never really utilize them in a satisfactory manner – combat in real time is always clumsy as hell. There is a reason why Diablo didn’t had 50+ rules about swinging your sword – it would slower the game and that’s the opposite of what Blizzard was trying to achieve. In P: K all the strengths of the original system are turned into weakness.

What do you mean by saying: "you can never really utilize them [mechanics] in a satisfactory manner - combat i real time is always clumsy as hell"? Why can't you? I literally can't see the problem here. Even if you're pausing excessively, you're doing so in order to utilize the mechanics when you feel you need to, meaning each pause has (or should have) a purpose behind it.

If you really want to raise a complaint then not having a more in-depth automatization/scripts as a feature is where you should start. Because delegating lesser work to the AI would allow the player to focus on more important actions, meaning there would be less necessity to use pause to make a party member hug this potion or use that spell, because the AI would do it on its own.

 

[Saravan]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

RtwP more often than not encourages encounter design which pads filler content solely due to the choice of the combat system which unnecessarily lengthens the game. Imagine clocking in over 2500 hours without finishing the game even once and failing to acknowledge that.

 

[gurugeorge]

Because TB combat is slow and retarded. RTwP is superior in every way imaginable.

This is going too far in the other way. You realize you can pause in RTwP, make a cup of coffee, do some exercises, shag your wife, go shopping, and come back to the game, right? That's the thing, with RTwP, provided the game gives you as good information as a turn-based game would (e.g. inspection), then every time you pause it's really not so unlike what you're doing in a turn with turn-based. You can spend as much time as you like measuring before you cut, just like in turn-based.

It's just that it's not forced on you, and you don't have to do it for every single move, wait through animations, etc. IOW, RTwP encompasses the fact that in a lot of fights, even tough ones in turn-based, a fair number of actions don't really need you to look that closely into them, there are often only a small number of viable options anyway, that you can leave to the AI (especially if the game's given you some control over the AI's brain, which gives you another interesting layer of gameplay to play with).

On the other hand, if the gameplay is rich with simulation and "neat tricks," and you have more options, you want to have the turn-based effect, which psychologically clears you mind for each character's move so that you look into each character's move options in the most minute detail. And if the design, encounters and gameplay are set up for that, it's very rewarding too. With turn-based, there's a psychological sense of settling down, cracking your knuckles and rolling up your sleeves for each move, which is very addictive.

I dunno, it really baffles me how people can really hate one or the other mode or think there's some kind of superiority of one over the other in an absolute sense. Basically, the truth is that 1) in some ways they're not all that different, but 2) in other ways they're different enough to have different strengths and weaknesses. Both these things are true. Plus, so much depends on just how good the game is and well-designed it is overall. There are shitty RTwP implementations and there are shitty turn-based implementations, and brilliant implementations of both as well - and yes, it does have a lot to do with the quality of encounter design too, as many have said.

Another distinction as far as I can see it, is that the strengths of turn-based make it tend towards a board-game type of deal, where each encounter is a staged "chess match." In fact, if it's not like that, then it's annoying (again, if in turn-based you're having to give boring orders to most of your characters like "fire," then that's lost the point of turn-based). Whereas the strengths of RTwP make it more congenial to a design where you can have a more quasi-realistic form of exploration - the encounters are more like fights you're stumbling into in the course of exploration, rather than separate, staged, juicy chess matches. In that way, it can give more of a sense of being in a virtual world. Of course I'm painting this in terms of extremes, and the two forms can be closer than that, but that's kind of the tendency.

 

[Inhabitants of Khorinis]

TB mode in Pathfinder turns 50-80hs long game to 200hs long game. It sucks nigger dick and I'd only use it during difficult fights. Turn based mode? more like padding mode.

 

[Desiderius]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

RtwP more often than not encourages encounter design which pads filler content solely due to the choice of the combat system which unnecessarily lengthens the game. Imagine clocking in over 2500 hours without finishing the game even once and failing to acknowledge that.

Jesus you’re worse than Yosh. I have a lot of hours because I leave the game on while doing other things and spent over a year testing a lot of different builds and situations via reload and respec, then picked up the game again for awhile for CotW in Depths.

Unlike you I don’t burn hours and brain cells on most of the regular fights because I spent my time improving instead of bitching about the devs not dumbing things down for me.

 

[gurugeorge]

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

Once you figure out that these TB uber alles tards don't even understand how to play RTwP dismissing them out of hand becomes much easier.

Which is good because they love to listen to themselves bloviate ad nauseum. The entire thread is non-stop retardation because the premises are counterfactual. TB was never not popular. People make RTwP games because they can on computers and they're better.

The retarded takes never stop.

The second any encounter becomes even remotely dangerous people either switch to TB mode or pause-unpause for 6 seconds, pause-unpause for 6 seconds-x10, add in a few extra pauses too to handle swift actions and aiming aoe spells. Such a wasteful system that a game which would do the encounter design from the start with TB mode in mind would be much better. Combat takes zero advantage of verticality as well as it lends itself poorly to RtwP.

There are a bunch of filler encounters and tiny locations in Pathfinder Kingmaker that are just completely unnecessary and have no purpose besides being just filler content for RtwP. This content is just mindless bloat and had the game been designed with TB in mind from the start it would be a lot more focused and tight game that is not unnecessarily long for the sake of being long. The philosophy behind RtwP affects dungeon design as well, turning them into stupid gauntlets.

You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

Imagine two games. In one, you have a map with icons, each icon represents an encounter, you click on the icon and you go into a turn-based encounter.

In the other, you have a map with terrain that's a graphical representation of a virtual world, you wander around in that virtual world looking for something, following clues.

Naturally, in the second type of game, you'll have some "trash" encounters - you'll just stumble on groups of enemies that are doing their thing. It's just a quasi-realistic aspect of what an adventure through that world would really be like.

Is either of them good or bad design? No, they're just different kinds of design, one more abstracted, the other less abstracted, one more focused on each encounter being a "chess match," the other more focused on presenting a quasi-realistic virtual world with an adventure through it.

And whether someone will enjoy either depends more on the intrinsic quality of the game, rather than just those design decisions in and of themselves. Either type of game could be great or shitty, irrespective of the fact that the first has fewer and more "staged" encounters and the latter more, and more random encounters. Even the question of whether "trash" encounters are fun or not, depends on the intrinsic fun of the combat - if it's enjoyable in the moment to play through, then you'll be wanting lots of encounters, because you'll be enjoying the combat in a moment-to-moment sense.

 

[Saravan]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

RtwP more often than not encourages encounter design which pads filler content solely due to the choice of the combat system which unnecessarily lengthens the game. Imagine clocking in over 2500 hours without finishing the game even once and failing to acknowledge that.

Jesus you’re worse than Yosh. I have a lot of hours because I leave the game on while doing other things and spent over a year testing a lot of different builds and situations via reload and respec, then picked up the game again for awhile for CotW in Depths.

Unlike you I don’t burn hours and brain cells on most of the regular fights because I spent my time improving instead of bitching about the devs not dumbing things down for me.

Are you some sort of mentally deficient NPC that was coded with one voice line? The get gud argument is irrelevant, we are not talking about difficulty but the inherent nature of padding content due to RtwP. Try reading before instantly hitting the reply button with another self-masturbatory post.

 

[smaug]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

RtwP more often than not encourages encounter design which pads filler content solely due to the choice of the combat system which unnecessarily lengthens the game. Imagine clocking in over 2500 hours without finishing the game even once and failing to acknowledge that.

Jesus you’re worse than Yosh. I have a lot of hours because I leave the game on while doing other things and spent over a year testing a lot of different builds and situations via reload and respec, then picked up the game again for awhile for CotW in Depths.

Unlike you I don’t burn hours and brain cells on most of the regular fights because I spent my time improving instead of bitching about the devs not dumbing things down for me.

Yea, you learned the game through and through mastering its systems and playing the shit out of it. Who cares though? That doesn’t make RTWP good. Kingmaker’s kingdom management had purpose and did stuff but it’s extremely banal and essentially an un-interesting minigame.

I will grant you it has better RTWP than Baldur’s Gate.

 

[smaug]

RTwP is not "reflex-oriented," except in the easier fights. With hard fights, if you're playing it by reflex you're doing it wrong, you should be pausing pre-emptively and keeping an eye on who's doing what, who's got what conditions or status effects, where mobs are going, who they're targeting, and giving orders that anticipate problems. That's where the fun in RTwP is found, in "keeping on top of things," not in reacting to things in an "oh shit!" sense.

Once you figure out that these TB uber alles tards don't even understand how to play RTwP dismissing them out of hand becomes much easier.

Which is good because they love to listen to themselves bloviate ad nauseum. The entire thread is non-stop retardation because the premises are counterfactual. TB was never not popular. People make RTwP games because they can on computers and they're better.

Browser games are fantastic, you’re just retarded for not hunkering down and mastering them.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

because it would have made the complete lack of any AI even more obvious

 

[smaug]

because it would have made the complete lack of any AI even more obvious

This is actual the main problem, BG with SCS can be somewhat interested to play but Owlcat’s AI is so fucking retarded it makes a lot of potentially interesting fights very boring. The Cyclops Lich is the probably the worst offender.

 

[Joggerino]

Instead of introducing TB to RTwP games we should do the opposite. I want to see RTwP in Xenonauts 2, Underrail, Colony Ship, and others.

 

[Desiderius]

because it would have made the complete lack of any AI even more obvious

This is actual the main problem, BG with SCS can be somewhat interested to play but Owlcat’s AI is so fucking retarded it makes a lot of potentially interesting fights very boring. The Cyclops Lich is the probably the worst offender.

You’re intended to limp into that fight on your last consumable then be relieved that 10,000 years (and the “betrayal” of a certain companion) have left him even more worn down than you are. If that isn’t what’s happening you need to up the difficulty level.

If they made him half as hard on normal difficulty as some of the optional fights they’d have even more whining than they already do from the faceroll generation.

Prebuffing and AI improved in Wrath, especially with Dispelling adds hidden in corners. PnPers are already losing their minds.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

because it would have made the complete lack of any AI even more obvious

This is actual the main problem, BG with SCS can be somewhat interested to play but Owlcat’s AI is so fucking retarded it makes a lot of potentially interesting fights very boring. The Cyclops Lich is the probably the worst offender.

You’re intended to limp into that fight on your last consumable then be relieved that 10,000 years (and the “betrayal” of a certain companion) have left him even more worn down than you are. If that isn’t what’s happening you need to up the difficulty level.

If they made him half as hard on normal difficulty as some of the optional fights they’d have even more whining than they already do from the faceroll generation.

Prebuffing and AI improved in Wrath, especially with Dispelling adds hidden in corners. PnPers are already losing their minds.

"AI improved" has the implication that there was any AI beyond "attack the closest target and sometimes cast a spell" to begin with. Their solution to the lack of any AI was to heavily buff all the stats across the board so fights were challenging.

 

[Desiderius]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

RtwP more often than not encourages encounter design which pads filler content solely due to the choice of the combat system which unnecessarily lengthens the game. Imagine clocking in over 2500 hours without finishing the game even once and failing to acknowledge that.

Jesus you’re worse than Yosh. I have a lot of hours because I leave the game on while doing other things and spent over a year testing a lot of different builds and situations via reload and respec, then picked up the game again for awhile for CotW in Depths.

Unlike you I don’t burn hours and brain cells on most of the regular fights because I spent my time improving instead of bitching about the devs not dumbing things down for me.

Yea, you learned the game through and through mastering its systems and playing the shit out of it. Who cares though? That doesn’t make RTWP good. Kingmaker’s kingdom management had purpose and did stuff but it’s extremely banal and essentially an un-interesting minigame.

I will grant you it has better RTWP than Baldur’s Gate.

That’s fair. P:K’s a good first pass but the game shipped with gaping holes and at the end of the day they didn’t bother to fix most of them (they did eventually hit most of the bugs at least).

If they pull the same thing in Wrath my criticism will not be muted.

 

[Desiderius]

because it would have made the complete lack of any AI even more obvious

This is actual the main problem, BG with SCS can be somewhat interested to play but Owlcat’s AI is so fucking retarded it makes a lot of potentially interesting fights very boring. The Cyclops Lich is the probably the worst offender.

You’re intended to limp into that fight on your last consumable then be relieved that 10,000 years (and the “betrayal” of a certain companion) have left him even more worn down than you are. If that isn’t what’s happening you need to up the difficulty level.

If they made him half as hard on normal difficulty as some of the optional fights they’d have even more whining than they already do from the faceroll generation.

Prebuffing and AI improved in Wrath, especially with Dispelling adds hidden in corners. PnPers are already losing their minds.

"AI improved" has the implication that there was any AI beyond "attack the closest target and sometimes cast a spell" to begin with. Their solution to the lack of any AI was to heavily buff all the stats across the board so fights were challenging.

Buffed compared to what? This isn’t PnP. Compared to the skills and abilities available to the player they’re not buffed at all. You can autolevel and cast your spells and breeze through Core.

If people weren’t gimping themselves trying to play 3.5 this would be more obvious. Shit feels overbuffed because you’re playing the game underleveled.

Me: Why are you trying to beat the whole game with Grease and Magic Missile?

PowerGamur: Well with my obligatory Vivi, Monk, Deliverer, and Paladin splashes that's all I can cast.

Me: IC

 

[Orud]

False. D:OS reached 500k sales in three months, it took PoE seven months to reach that.

You are correct, it was 500k sales and not 150k.

This is some revisionist history. More of the same of what, exactly? How many games like D:OS1 were released back in the early/mid 2010s?

More of "an indie RPG that didn't come close to even low-AAA numbers". The turn-based aspect was only a minor detail until its sequel raked in double the amount of its contemporaries on kickstarter along with pulling (low) AAA numbers. Only then did others look at what was different compared to their games; turn-based or co-op. Budgets are not allocated at a whim to patch in turn-based mode into games like Kingmaker or PoE2, especially when a game tanks at launch (like PoE2), it needs to make sense from a business point of view. DoS2's numbers proved that for the ones paying the bills to create games.

PoE and Kingmaker were some of the bigger CRPG's paying homage to the original BG trilogy of the past decade, and they suddenly switched out a large part of that heritage after DoS2 kept outpacing them all. I think it's foolish if you believe that they just did it because they felt like it.

 

[Mortmal]

The retarded takes never stop...

...You will be bored to tears going through the entirety of Kingmaker in TB mode because it's obvious the encounter design was not made for it, as it happens with every game that "offers" both options such as PoE.

That's a helluva a lot of words to say you suck. You can stop the retarded takes

Nobody gives a shit about your "skillz", it's such cringe too see you try self insert this kind of talk into any post. I wrote about encounter design which has nothing to do with either difficulty or being able to speed up animations in TB mode but I understand if your massive autism makes it too difficult to grasp basic reading comprehension.

Nothing you can say will convince him you cant just switch from rtwp to a turn based mode like that without redoing the encounter design. Game is balanced around normal and rtwp,on turn based any higher dificulties are trivial . Stats blocks are different from the books, with often more ac , ton of filler fights taking too much time even if you speed up the animation X10 it will be often a slog. Then i am not even going into details like cover, you arent able to shoot through enemies like that in pen and paper , there's friendly fire too, kotc2 do it better.Class design not the same, the alchemist bombs arent supposed to work like that , but in rtwp it would be too much of a pain , by the way i dont remember the vivisectionist having all that stuff.

RtwP more often than not encourages encounter design which pads filler content solely due to the choice of the combat system which unnecessarily lengthens the game. Imagine clocking in over 2500 hours without finishing the game even once and failing to acknowledge that.

Jesus you’re worse than Yosh. I have a lot of hours because I leave the game on while doing other things and spent over a year testing a lot of different builds and situations via reload and respec, then picked up the game again for awhile for CotW in Depths.

Unlike you I don’t burn hours and brain cells on most of the regular fights because I spent my time improving instead of bitching about the devs not dumbing things down for me.

Yea, you learned the game through and through mastering its systems and playing the shit out of it. Who cares though? That doesn’t make RTWP good. Kingmaker’s kingdom management had purpose and did stuff but it’s extremely banal and essentially an un-interesting minigame.

I will grant you it has better RTWP than Baldur’s Gate.

That’s fair. P:K’s a good first pass but the game shipped with gaping holes and at the end of the day they didn’t bother to fix most of them (they did eventually hit most of the bugs at least).

If they pull the same thing in Wrath my criticism will not be muted.

let's hope its not the same thing again, kingmaker release was atrocious, bugs everywhere, broken main quests,absurd npc stat blocks , kingdom management could easily fuck up your game, then at the end it was a slog and getting perma debuffs , so fun, so fun...
Now as of today its probably even better than baldur's gate 2 or ice wind dale, and certainly worth of its place amongst he best and maybe is the best.

 

[LannTheStupid]

absurd npc stat blocks

Another victim of spider swarms? Nice to meet you.

"AI improved" has the implication that there was any AI beyond "attack the closest target and sometimes cast a spell" to begin with. Their solution to the lack of any AI was to heavily buff all the stats across the board so fights were challenging.

Have you played the beta with the setting that expands enemy A.I. enabled? I have. Not much, but it was painful (I am not Desiderius , after all).

 

[Nano]

More of "an indie RPG that didn't come close to even low-AAA numbers". The turn-based aspect was only a minor detail until its sequel raked in double the amount of its contemporaries on kickstarter along with pulling (low) AAA numbers. Only then did others look at what was different compared to their games; turn-based or co-op. Budgets are not allocated at a whim to patch in turn-based mode into games like Kingmaker or PoE2, especially when a game tanks at launch (like PoE2), it needs to make sense from a business point of view. DoS2's numbers proved that for the ones paying the bills to create games.

Dude, you're wrong. Let it go. Were you around in 2014? D:OS1 wasn't considered some cute indie game back then, it was a big deal for the genre. By the time Kingmaker's development started (mid-2016), RTWP was so out of fashion that Bioware and Obsidian were basically the only developers doing it (and we know Bioware's version of it can more accurately be described as "action game with pause").