Wizardry Wizardry 8 - surviving high level mobs

[Grampy_Bone]

Yeah, 3 melees on the front are the most optimal option

The only issue I have with this is I've found a 3 melee front row often ends up with everything dead after the first attack flurry and nothing to swing at with their secondary attacks. So reach weapons/flank positions allow them to access more of their total damage potential. But for a beginner--playing ironman no less--I wouldn't recommend say a single frontline rogue build.

The reason I say a bard is risky vs a priest is for a first time player he's not going to know where to find the instruments while playing a priest will at least guarantee he can get crucial spells via level ups. (Edit: also maybe this is just me but using a bard for buffs is annoying when they fail to cast Magic Screen at a high power level despite 100 Music skill)

 

[Piotrovitz]

Can't agree on that - I don't think even on novice your 3 man front row mows everything in the first round, unless you're fighting ants maybe.

As for instruments - you don't have to specifically look for them, they aren't hidden anywhere, you don't need scouting etc - almost every one of them is laid down on your main quest path (bless in Monastery, shrill sound in Arnika road, insanity in Cemetery, haste in Trynton, magic screen in Marten's Bluff etc. You just stumble upon them without any metagaming knowledge.

 

[Piotrovitz]

I don't think anyone was overrating bloodlust compared to late game/meme weapons (not all of which are necessarily better btw) so it seems like a moot point to me. And such comparisons often don't make sense on the most basic level: you're ditching bloodlust for a staff or a spear on what builds exactly?

This.

When it comes to my usual rogue build it's bloodlust/stiletto later swapped for fang/thieves' dagger - whose combos work like a charm for the whole game.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Priest is one of the worst classes in the game, but I think there's a solid argument for having one in a beginner's party: having the quickest possible access to divinity buffs and heals, being able to cast them reliably, can skip on raising int, sturdy.

Bard is pretty much a must have imo, if only for being able to spam sleep from the get go and being the ultimate utility character than can also be made into competent melee/ranged fighter. It's a class without flaws, bar shitty skill bonus.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's a must.. but it is a damn good class, and extremely fun. Bard is one of my favorite classes in Wiz8, along with the Alchemist, Psionic, Fighter and Rogue.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

The only thing that's hands down a must is a competent divinity caster and bard is not far after that (and he can largely fill in the role of a divinity caster, especially if there's also a gadgie in the team). I think that fighter, valk, rogue, bard, mage + a wild card for the 6th spot is the optimal beginner's party. Assuming one wants to have fun, variety and long term planning, of course, otherwise some stupid shit like 4 fighters + a bard and a priest is obviously much better early game.

 

[jackofshadows]

Bard is extremely boring in terms of progression and even in terms of gameplay for that matter, only fighter is worse. One could always use Saxx if the urge of using them is that high.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

What's so boring about the bard? Good from early to late game, steady instrument progressions, lots of unique equipment, can be shaped into melee or ranged role, offers great utility. It's a class that's pretty much incapable of having an idle turn unless you want it to.

 

[jackofshadows]

I don't deny they're good, let alone fighters but that's not what I meant. There's a very small pool of options regarding what to develop for them, I know that many players raising them lockpicking simply because of that, for example. If only except for the choice either pump more stamina or some other stat, more suited for 'idle rounds'. That small multi-class trick Piotrovitz mentioned is also a nice spin but nothing more.

In my book, fiddling with hybrid classes is way more fun, as well as with casters, especially Bishop obviously because of all thouse options. I also prefer Gadgeteer over Bard even thought they're not exactly that close role wise.

And Bards're very weak in late game, I prefer more late-game oriented classes in general even if it's badly hurting early game.

 

[Desiderius]

Fighters and Bishops are boring.

Felp Sam
Human Pri1/Lord
Hobbit Alc1/Ranger
Elf Bard
Gnome Gadg
Mook Psi

I like variety and unique angles of attack.

CC mod has Shield as main skill for Lord, Dual for Sam. Sam starts getting Wizardry at lvl 3. Bard gets Wizardry at five like Wiz 7.

Ranger has Bow as main skill, Gadg gets Modern.

Looks like may be having some issues training Realm skills due to low PIE. Everything else coming along nicely, including training Psi in Sling/Throw to use Eagle Eye.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I'd say they're one of the least boring classes so that's why I'm surprised. There's always something for them to do and they never suffer from issues like lack of enemies in range or no sp, they can wear cursed weapons cause they have instruments, they can use items/sticks because artifacts etc. Then there's quite an impressive set of class exclusive items you can gather (instruments excluded) and the fact that they are one of the few classes that can act equally well on front- and back-line. And then there all the utility skills and camping boost. Gadgie, which you prefer, is a class that spends huge portion of the game either making a piss weak ranged attack or casting a single target spell. As a class it "opens up" around marten's bluff, at which point bard has an impressive set of instruments, can wear full set of Tempest items and wield an end game weapon (depends on metaknowledge)

And I really fail to see what makes them "very weak" in end game. Opening every combat with highest dice haste makes them mvp and that's just one of the myriad things they can do.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Fighters and Bishops are boring.

That's why I love them. No thrills, no nonsense, just pure raw strength. Fighter and Rogue are my go-to frontliners because they are so reliable and good at what they do. The Rogue especially is nice because they get their best weapons already from Arnika and after that they just start getting better at Swords, daggers, Dual Wielding and basically slap everyones shit. A fighter is just a reliable frontliner who I basically never have to worry about getting KO'd. Good shit for people like me who like to to have a mix of high and low maintenance characters.

 

[jackofshadows]

Bishops are boring

Class with access to all spells in the entire game is boring. I... just can't wrap my head around such a statement, sorry.

Opening every combat with highest dice haste makes them mvp and that's just one of the myriad things they can do.

It's not like they can do that exclusively, right? Yes, they can provide a lot of support throughout the entire game but so does some other classes. They're noob friendly and it's nice to have one around but they just seem boring to me because they excel in supporting, not doing their own thing if that's making any sense. Gadgies are complete vagons half the game, no question about that but after certain point their progress starting to skyrocket and that's exciting thing to watch. Especially when other's progress is usually slowed down instead.

 

[Desiderius]

Bishops are boring

Class with access to all spells in the entire game is boring. I... just can't wrap my head around such a statement, sorry.

Opening every combat with highest dice haste makes them mvp and that's just one of the myriad things they can do.

It's not like they can do that exclusively, right? Yes, they can provide a lot of support throughout the entire game but so does some other classes. They're noob friendly and it's nice to have one around but they just seem boring to me because they excel in supporting, not doing their own thing if that's making any sense. Gadgies are complete vagons half the game, no question about that but after certain point their progress starting to skyrocket and that's exciting thing to watch. Especially when other's progress is usually slowed down instead.

Get a better head. They spend 2/3 of the game sucking. Then they suck compared to Specialists after that.

I’ve already got access to every spell in the game, why do I need another shitty version?

Action economy, what is it?

 

[Desiderius]

Fighters and Bishops are boring.

That's why I love them. No thrills, no nonsense, just pure raw strength. Fighter and Rogue are my go-to frontliners because they are so reliable and good at what they do. The Rogue especially is nice because they get their best weapons already from Arnika and after that they just start getting better at Swords, daggers, Dual Wielding and basically slap everyones shit. A fighter is just a reliable frontliner who I basically never have to worry about getting KO'd. Good shit for people like me who like to to have a mix of high and low maintenance characters.

Lord with Shield gets the survivability while also covering Divinity. Felp Sam Dual slices and dices with added Crit Strike and Wiz spells.

CC mod nicely fixes the primary skills.

Fighter is boring because it’s too narrow, Bishop because it isn’t narrow enough.

 

[jackofshadows]

Get a better head. They spend 2/3 of the game sucking. Then they suck compared to Specialists after that.

I’ve already got access to every spell in the game, why do I need another shitty version?

Action economy, what is it?

Even Gadgie doesn't spend that much time sucking, let alone Bishop - if only the very early game. As for specialists - do not confuse Bishop with hybrids, specialists are getting spells earlier than Bishop but only by a slight margin. In terms of options there's no contest, obviously. Anyway, we aren't talking about power, but about boringness and Bishop can be put in any gimmick martial party to cover anything. And I think gimmick parties are fun.

Maybe you've got access alright but I was talking in general, not about your specific composition.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Class with access to all spells in the entire game is boring. I... just can't wrap my head around such a statement, sorry.

I think what people usually mean by calling bishop "boring" is that it pretty much requires cheese (skill grind + metaknowledge of where to get all the books) to be properly utilized and I totally buy that. There's also the fact they have shit-tier specials and there's no extra/cool utility to them, akin to potion mixing, but that's fairly minor.

From my perspective: bishop always seems like paying the "advanced class" tax for something I don't really need. I pretty much never have more than one pure caster and I still fail to come up with a party where I'd really need bishop, aside from "boring" setups that include lots of pure melee.

Edit: wait, bishops can mix potions if they buff alchemy, right?

 

[Desiderius]

Even Gadgie doesn't spend that much time sucking, let alone Bishop - if only the very early game. As for specialists - do not confuse Bishop with hybrids, specialists are getting spells earlier than Bishop but only by a slight margin. In terms of options there's no contest, obviously. Anyway, we aren't talking about power, but about boringness and Bishop can be put in any gimmick martial party to cover anything. And I think gimmick parties are fun.

Maybe you've got access alright but I was talking in general, not about your specific composition.

Game's about skillz, bro. Specialist has the Skillz. When I'm talking about options I'm talking about good ones. Hybrids excel at something, then also cover some spells. Bishops just cover spells, and spells, and spells. When you've got it in your head that you have to have a Fighter and a Rogue then you need a Bishop to cover the yawning gaps those leave.

I don't.

 

[jungl]

Games too easy to care about planning party builds. Strong enemy? like nigga just run away they cant hurt you. Wizardry 8 should of been on the n64 so all the 12 year old kiddos could play it.

 

[jackofshadows]

I think what people usually mean by calling bishop "boring" is that it pretty much requires cheese (skill grind + metaknowledge of where to get all the books) to be properly utilized and I totally buy that. There's also the fact they have shit-tier specials and there's no extra/cool utility to them, akin to potion mixing, but that's fairly minor.

I don't think Bishop requires all that. That stuff just makes them progress much faster... as any other basically. But I'm 100% with you on this - that's cheesy and unfun. The trick is to raise skills by playing normally so if you wanna develop to your Bishop all magic skills don't be a total sperg and put some points into magic use skills, not only into knowledge ones. So finding that balance is what has made using them fun to me.

As for the specials - potion mixing is the premium one, of course turn undead looks pale in comparison.

Game's about skillz, bro. Specialist has the Skillz. When I'm talking about options I'm talking about good ones. Hybrids excel at something, then also cover some spells. Bishops just cover spells, and spells, and spells. When you've got it in your head that you have to have a Fighter and a Rogue then you need a Bishop to cover the yawning gaps those leave.

I don't.

No idea why you'd assumed precisely that since I consider Fighter the most boring class in Wiz8. My last party was Sam/Monk/4*ninja just so you know but creating a party without hybrids with a Bishop seem appealing enough to me, sure. They just don't seem too different from specialist casters. With slower progression but more powerful later on.

 

[Piotrovitz]

I think what people usually mean by calling bishop "boring" is that it pretty much requires cheese (skill grind + metaknowledge of where to get all the books) to be properly utilized and I totally buy that.

That's a common misconception. I've always rolled with two bishops and end-game they had their casting skills in 80s/90s, without any need for grinding (unless you count casting armorplate/magic screen/light before resting after a major fight). IMO it's a perfect scenario, like ending some game just before you hit the level cap. Really, you don't have to rest spam and cast light dozens of times to get the Bishop realm/magic skill up to a level when it becomes useful. Once you get fireball, you will use it extensively in Arnika and Trynton. Same with freeze flesh or whipping rocks. Early-mid game you cast those excessively, so the skills will grow in a steady and satisfactory pace.

Also, have to disagree on the necessity of metaknowledge on where to get the books. Lots of useful spells are available at major vendors (e.g Swamp), and the other ones you just pick on level ups. Even if your bishop covers 2-3 schools, you don't have to get all the spells - just the crucial ones. On certain level ups, where you can chose only sucky ones (razor cloak, shadow hound, chameleon etc) you just save your pick, and once you hit the next tier, you get what you want.

Fully agree on Bard though - nothing's more satisfactory than opening a fight with max level Haste from rousing drums.

 

[Piotrovitz]

CC mod nicely fixes the primary skills.

It's been a while when I've tried CC mod, so my memory can be fuzzy, but doesn't it add the critical strike skill for Fighters (or even Lords and Valks), making them even more OPd?

I think this was the reason why I dumped the run with it and got back to Wiz+

 

[Desiderius]

I hear you - nukes are underrated. It's just that any sentence that includes "by endgame" is theorycrafting and ignores quality of life while playing the game (describing what you've got your Bishop doing is the opposite and perfectly viable tbh, but I like hybrids who can nuke weak stuff and ko hard stuff while bringing some other utility).

 

[Desiderius]

CC mod nicely fixes the primary skills.

It's been a while when I've tried CC mod, so my memory can be fuzzy, but doesn't it add the critical strike skill for Fighters (or even Lords and Valks), making them even more OPd?

I think this was the reason why I dumped the run with it and got back to Wiz+

Nope, Lord gets Shield as Special Skill which is very nice. Haven't picked up Vi yet. Only thing I don't like is Stealth on Ranger/Bard and Bard Wizardry but that's minor. Psi also gets Scouting, which could let you skip Ranger, but I like the Bow Special there.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Weird, I was pretty sure that some melee classes got critical strike, but it may be just foggy memory.

Not sure how much research you did on the mod, but be aware that it makes some changes on the gear restrictions, e.g Rogue or Samurai (not sure which), cannot use Bloodlust etc.