Wizardry & Disco Elysium: how are these games the same genre?

[ValeVelKal]

Edit : Forget Ghost of a Tale, which does not have combat or rather you can only be on the receiving hand. Maybe more an infiltration game with RPG elements (like say Styx) than a RPG, granted

 

[luj1]

Storytelling games aren't RPGs mate. Anything can have a story. Where is the mechanical combat layer? RPGs were born when people started giving stories to figurines in wargaming.

Again, if RPG is a "combat simulation by definition" there would not be RPG where combat would be totally secondary to the game like Ultima VII (

press C to kill all enemies") or even fully avoidable (famously Fallout ^^, or Undertale)

Yeah you can avoid combat, but these games have combat systems. The stuff you listed does not

 

[ValeVelKal]

Storytelling games aren't RPGs mate. Anything can have a story. Where is the mechanical combat layer? RPGs were born when people started giving stories to figurines in wargaming.

Being a bit circular there. "Here are examples of RPG without combat". "Those are not RPG because they don't have a mechanical combat layer". ^^

 

[luj1]

There is no point in having genres mate if we arent aware of the boundaries

 

[Metronome]

But stats alone do not make a game an RPG, else Call of Duty is an RPG.

I think it counts as an ARPG if it has stats. Oblivion with guns, for example, would still be an ARPG. If stats in a genre bypass tests of intelligence (puzzles), like they do tests of reflexes in ARPGs, I think the resulting genre is something comparable.

In a pure RPG the only thing that you could be judged on is character creation and development choices. Even basic combat mechanics involve tactics which get in the way of that. Ironically the combat can then make a game less of an RPG rather than more of one. Combat is basically a puzzle you need to solve using your personal intelligence. Having better stats makes the puzzle easier and having worse stats makes it harder. It's just like how challenges work in any other genre with RPG elements. Using your judgement to win a fight means the level 50 hardened combat veteran you are playing as isn't using his. Using your intelligence to solve a complex puzzle means the illiterate barbarian you are playing as isn't using his.

That's the paradox with RPGs. The more you let the player do, the less roleplaying is going on.

 

[Harthwain]

It's rather simple:

Wizardry is a blobber, while Disco Elysium is closer to a video game adaptation of PnP.

 

[V_K]

Golden Sky

Couldn't google this one. Can you share a link?

 

[ValeVelKal]

Golden Sky

Couldn't google this one. Can you share a link?

It is Tabletop, I heard about it for seeing its kickstarter fly ... and forget it was actually TT and not CRPG.

It seemed lame to me though .

The other three (The Council, EastShade and Ghost of a Tale) are computer. Ghost of a Tale is an extraordinary game ("sneak RPG" with Dark Soul map design) I recommend to everyone, you know the Council (I did not like it much) and EastShade is a nice-to-play but loses its steam mid-game.

 

[V_K]

The other three (The Council, EastShade and Ghost of a Tale) are computer. Ghost of a Tale is an extraordinary game I recommend to everyone, you know the Council (I did not like it much) and EastShade is a nice-to-play but loses its steam mid-game.

Yeah, I know those. I wouldn't personally call Eastshade an RPG though (here we go again ) - it doesn't have any character building as far as I can tell.

 

[AwesomeButton]

RPG is an umbrella term.

RPG is like gender - it's a spectrum

 

[V_K]

RPG is like gender - it's a spectrum

More specifically, autism spectrum.

 

[akkadian5]

I can't define the genre of CRPG, but I can find the commonalities between Wizardry and Disco Elysium.
They are about lack of action, placement of spaces and objects, solution, etc. But it is too abstract and can even be applied retrospectively to completely unrelated genres.

I think the idea that all games are simulations is correct.
However, no one wants a "perfect simulation". Because our society is only a simulation of that of our predecessors.
We want a simulation of something different from our daily lives. War (even real ones) is just one of them. games is an even lighter version of it.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

mibbles konsenus has been reached.

 

[mibbles]

What, already?

 

[Theodora]

So the consensus is that gamers are too autistic for their own good. Yes?

 

[Derringer]

One game's a blobber based off of a tabletop fantasy wargame while the other's a CYOA made by Communists so I'm not entirely sure if it's a fair comparison.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

rpg is when you need to go through a few hours of debugging mod order list to make titty physics just right

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Does fighting suicidal urges not count as combat? Cause if it does. I am definitely a combatfag irl.

 

[JarlFrank]

RPG = stat-based character system

 

[Silly Germans]

Wait a moment, I thought we are here to discuss RPG's

Spoiler

Rolling

Spoiler

Panda

Spoiler

Games

Spoiler

 

[The Jester]

DE is a visual novel

THIS is a visual novel:

THIS is a adventure game with RPG elements:

 

[V_K]

THIS is a adventure game with RPG elements:

THIS is an Adventure game with RPG elements:

(although it's a better RPG than many "pure" RPGs).

Or this:

Or this:

THIS:

is a glorified edgy CYOA.

 

[Lilliput McHammersmith]

When Shin Megami Tensei, Might & Magic, Wasteland, Crusader Kings II, Sunless Skies, A Legionary Life, UnReal World, Knights of the Chalice, Planescape Torment, the Witcher 3, Battle Brothers, Darkest Dungeon, Alpha Protocol, EVE, Dark Souls, and Pathologic are all RPGs; then what can possibly be gained from policing the boundaries over this particular divergence?

Shin Megami Tensei - JRPG bullshit, not a real RPG.
Crusader Kings II - grand strategy, if it is an RPG, then HoMM is RPG too.
the Witcher 3 - action game. If it's an RPG, then last Far Cry is RPG too.
Darkest Dungeon - roguelike dungeon crawler.
Alpha Protocol - action game with very good C&C.
Dark Souls - action game.

Half of the games on your list are not RPGs, but crossovers at best.

SMT is JRPG bullshit? It's heavily based on Wizardry.

Agree with your other points, minus Dark Souls, though it is definitely an Action-RPG.

 

[Rieser]

These threads are about as autistic as the Codex gets, which is why I enjoy reading them.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

If it can be played with a gamepad, then it is not a RPG.