Wizardry & Disco Elysium: how are these games the same genre?

[barghwata]

Anyone who has some experience with adventure games and knows how they are designed, can tell that Disco Elysium is simply put an adventure game.

Hardly... Disco does have alot of similiarities with adventure games that much is true, but i would argue it has alot more differences; the main difference being its stat/dice roll based gameplay that literally flies in the face of that genre's whole game design philosophy; solving puzzles (which is the pillar of adventure games) is supposed to be an exercise in logical deduction and pattern recognition, not throwing dice. in DE your stats and your dice rolls are given a much higher priority to this which is probably why so many items in the game aren't tools that you can use to solve puzzles (like in almost all adventure games) but are mostly just things you equipe or consume to gain stat based effects and boosts.

Morever, DE also allows for the possibility to fail and continue to advance in the game nevertheless, reacting to your failure accordingly through consequences and letting you move on rather then just blocking you untill you solve the puzzle like almost all adventure games do. This is because it prioritises roleplaying and storytelling over puzzle solving.

 

[Latro]

DE also allows for the possibility to fail and continue to advance in the game nevertheless, reacting to your failure accordingly through consequences and letting you move on rather then just blocking you untill you solve the puzzle like almost all adventure games do. This is because it prioritises roleplaying and storytelling over puzzle solving

which is why we call it a visual novel

 

[barghwata]

which is why we call it a visual novel

Please don't go there......... at the least the adventure vs RPG debate had a little logic to it.

 

[overly excitable young man]

What nonsense is this thread?
Disco is an adventure.

 

[Latro]

which is why we call it a visual novel

Please don't go there......... at the least the adventure vs RPG debate had a little logic to it.

Are you familiar with VNs as a genre? They also prioritize role-playing and story-telling over puzzles (you can select different routes for your MC with dozens of bad ends; which Disco has) and there are some with character stats too. It's actually quite a pertinent topic.

 

[barghwata]

Are you familiar with VNs as a genre? They also prioritize role-playing and story-telling over puzzles (you can select different routes for your MC with dozens of bad ends; which Disco has) and there are some with character stats too. It's actually quite a pertinent topic.

No, just no...... visual novels don't offer any real form of gameplay iteractivity with a gameworld let alone one that is done through character building and stat based dice rolls, you just click on a dialogue and move to next dialogue.

 

[Karellen]

I've been replaying Icewind Dale since last week. If there's been any choice that mattered anywhere, I must have missed it. So is Icewind Dale a real-time strategy game now?

Don't take things out of context, you sperg. In a previous message just a few minutes ago i explained that if a game decides to remove combat, it has to replace it with something else for gameplay. If the gameplay is just "follow the script", then it is an Adventure game. Adventure games do that...

Point-and-click adventure games rightly have puzzles that must be solved in order to progress in the game. One does not simply "follow the script". I guess you could make a case for DE being similar to Telltale games, but those represent a sadly atrophied form of adventure gaming. It's not obvious to me why one should consider Disco Elysium to be an atrophied adventure game rather than an atrophied RPG, particularly since Disco Elysium still has stats and an experience system. In fact, while Disco Elysium might not be doing a good job at it, it seems to me like the Thought Cabinet mechanic is an attempt to introduce a long-term strategic character building element to what is otherwise humdrum dialogue option clicking, which seems like an RPG-ish thing to do to me.

In any case, my beef here has to do with what pen-and-paper RPGs are. Defining cRPGs by their combat systems isn't that terrible, and it works for a large amount of cRPGs (though it starts to break down comes to Planescape: Torment, Age of Decadence and the like, like every other definition, since cRPGs aren't a well-defined genre in the first place). I just find it asinine to justify that by appealing to pen-and-paper RPGs, since having no combat is utterly non-controversial in pen-and-paper. There is no "b-but it's actually an adventure game" whinging, it falls squarely in the mainstream of PnP RPG play, not least because even people who just play D&D often find themselves having entire sessions with no fighting, and they would be hard-pressed to conclude that it's not roleplaying until the combat happens. But all this really means is that cRPGs are their own thing at this point, distinct from pen-and-paper RPGs, and you can't say much about one based on the other.

Finally, Disco Elysium isn't a visual novel either, since in visual novels, the decisions one makes actually matter.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

which is why we call it a visual novel

Please don't go there......... at the least the adventure vs RPG debate had a little logic to it.

Are you familiar with VNs as a genre? They also prioritize role-playing and story-telling over puzzles (you can select different routes for your MC with dozens of bad ends; which Disco has) and there are some with character stats too.

Pure VNs have nothing more than slideshows with accompanying text and absolutely no interactivity besides dialogue options.

As for stuff like Sengoku Rance and some other VNs with puzzles and what not, they are VN & RPG/Adventure hybrids and it is precisely the latter elements which have something in common with DE.

 

[Latro]

Are you familiar with VNs as a genre? They also prioritize role-playing and story-telling over puzzles (you can select different routes for your MC with dozens of bad ends; which Disco has) and there are some with character stats too. It's actually quite a pertinent topic.

No, just no...... visual novels don't offer any real form of gameplay iteractivity with a gameworld let alone one that is done through character building and stat based dice rolls, you just click on a dialogue and move to next dialogue.

They lack dice rolls and manual movement, that's it. Disco Elysium is more closer to Adventure with VN elements than any real RPG.

 

[Latro]

and it is precisely the latter elements which have something in common with DE.

Wrong, they have RPG combat, and they have nothing similar to Disco Elysium in that respect. Also, the usual red cast of characters are coming out to defend DE.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

and it is precisely the latter elements which have something in common with DE.

Also, the usual red cast of characters are coming out to defend DE.

Eh, I'd say that both camps are fully entrenched within their views. Not like you'd change your mind either, so there's nothing 'partisan' in my defense of DE. Whether it as an RPG or not, it's still a game which I've enjoyed.

 

[TemplarGR]

Hardly... Disco does have alot of similiarities with adventure games that much is true, but i would argue it has alot more differences; the main difference being its stat/dice roll based gameplay that literally flies in the face of that genre's whole game design philosophy; solving puzzles (which is the pillar of adventure games) is supposed to be an exercise in logical deduction and pattern recognition, not throwing dice. in DE your stats and your dice rolls are given a much higher priority to this which is probably why so many items in the game aren't tools that you can use to solve puzzles (like in almost all adventure games) but are mostly just things you equipe or consume to gain stat based effects and boosts.

Morever, DE also allows for the possibility to fail and continue to advance in the game nevertheless, reacting to your failure accordingly through consequences and letting you move on rather then just blocking you untill you solve the puzzle like almost all adventure games do. This is because it prioritises roleplaying and storytelling over puzzle solving.

Impressive. Everything you wrote was wrong. Dice rolls do not an RPG game* make. Or else Backgammon is an RPG.... Plenty of Adventure games have dice rolls and RNG and Combat and whatnot, you simply haven't played enough Adventure games to know. "Flies in the face of that genre's whole game design philosophy" my ass, dude.

Also, in other games you can fail and move on also. And it is bad game design, by the way.

*yes i know, that was autism bait

 

[TemplarGR]

Wrong, they have RPG combat, and they have nothing similar to Disco Elysium in that respect. Also, the usual red cast of characters are coming out to defend DE.

Yeah. Disco Elysium support is mostly political. Makes sense, Joker movie, Antifa, black lives matter etc etc, there is a concetrated effort by communists to subdue the West, and communists push any art or entertainment they can to make their ideology more attractive to the masses.

Even if it was the most shitty game ever made, these people would still rate it 11/10.

 

[barghwata]

They lack dice rolls and manual movement, that's it. Disco Elysium is more closer to Adventure with VN elements than any real RPG.

Did you not read what i said, it's not just manual movement, it's the iteractivity with items and objects inside a gameworld that visual novels completely lack, plus it's funny how make it seem like stat based dice rolls aren't a big deal...... like the entire character building system is irrelevant and isn't actually a HUGE difference from visual novels and other genres, and yet you make a huge fuss about an RPG not having a combat system; it's almost like you think combat systems in RPGs are even more important then actual character building.

Impressive. Everything you wrote was wrong. Dice rolls do not an RPG game* make. Or else Backgammon is an RPG.... Plenty of Adventure games have dice rolls and RNG and Combat and whatnot, you simply haven't played enough Adventure games to know. "Flies in the face of that genre's whole game design philosophy" my ass, dude.

Yes please do tell me of all of these thousands of adventure games where you solve puzzles with stat based dice rolls......

Also, in other games you can fail and move on also. And it is bad game design, by the way.

It's not bad game design, it's different game design with completely different objectives, a design philosophy shared by TTRPGs by the way... when you get a critical failure or fuck up in tabletop you don't just stop the game, you move on and live with the consequences of your failure.

 

[Reinhardt]

Don't rate my post shit faggot if you're not going to respond to it.

Ok, i'll respond.

The fact like absolute SHIT games like Fagout: New Veg Ass, and Poncefinder: Cuckmaker get praised all fucking day but an excellent RPG like Disco Elysium gets shit all the time is ridiculous.

You misspelled Disco With Furries, fag.

 

[Reinhardt]

Disco Elysium is art.

Well, "modern art" is not a praise...

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Disco Elysium is art.

Well, "modern art" is not a praise...

It ain't socialist realism, but it's no Pollock either. Still better than low quality sword and sorcery stories.

 

[undecaf]

Interestingly polarizing game, DE, if nothing else.

 

[Reinhardt]

Defund police!

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Defund police!

Wrong thread, banderovets.

 

[Dramart]

Disco Elysium is art.

Well, "modern art" is not a praise...

It ain't socialist realism, but it's no Pollock either. Still better than low quality sword and sorcery stories.

Ok lets suppose it has a good story, but as a game is a nauseating turd.

 

[Reinhardt]

Defund police!

Wrong thread, banderovets.

No. This is game about police brutality in dialogues. Black Lives Matter! Take the knee!

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Disco Elysium is art.

Well, "modern art" is not a praise...

It ain't socialist realism, but it's no Pollock either. Still better than low quality sword and sorcery stories.

Ok lets suppose it has a good story, but as a game is a nauseating turd.

Could've been better, could've been worse.

There should've been more C&C based on the PC's thought cabinet and the whole clothing system should've been either kept solely cosmetic or revamped as to avoid silly mid-dialogue dress changes and what not. Likewise, I would've preferred if the soft timelock didn't exist, but I can understand why the devs thought it'd be better than simply assigning particular quests to each day.

 

[North Gibraltarian Dog]

Classic computer graphic adventures, the text adventures pioneers and the later visual novels, jrpgs or western cyoa and story-driven games are all different but also share some features in a overlapping way: narrative, cyoa and some sort of objects search in that order being the most common features in different proportions. Puzzles are only defining in graphic adventures and slighty less in text ones, so we could define in a strict sense "adventures" by the presence of puzzles/logical problems to interact through characters in a specific gameworld -so not simply puzzle games-. There is some logical problems in Disco Elysium but the game isn't focused in puzzle solving, but mostly in narrative, cyoa and "personalities development", so call Disco Elysium simply an adventure isn't accurate. It's kinda-adventurish at max.

In the rpg perspective, Disco Elysium, or other narrative-centric rpg labelled examples include some relevance of character stats in the outcome of different actions, but in much more signifiicant way in Planescape or Betrayal at Krondor than in DE, including combat or let's call those contexts in a more broad sense "conflicts", wtih different violent, diplomatic or stealthy approaches always linked with stats. Also exploration, character/s building and progression (through skills/attributes not "emotional states") are much more relevant in other story-driven rpgs than in DE so while most of those games can be considered rpg-lite and only few "pure"-rpgs with narrative focus, in DE case the game is kinda-rpgish at max.

So what have Wizardrys and DE in common? The simplified or light rpg features present in the estonian game,but in a much heavier way in Wizardrys: the kinda-exploration, the pseudo character progression or the stats-based-lite actions system.

From the most to least rpgish: Wizardrys > Planescape = Gothics >> The Witcher 3 = Mass Effect >>> Disco Elysium.

 

[Latro]

Did you not read what i said

I define Disco Elysium as "Adventure-VN", this implies that DE is an Adventure game with VN elements. Get it? Isometric adventure game in the vein of Sanitarium with dice rolls and bad ends.

it's almost like you think combat systems in RPGs are even more important then actual character building.

Yes, I said so about a page ago. Dragon Quest is an RPG series because it has an RPG combat system, there is no character building (outside of job classes). By saying that RPGs are defined by character building, you therefore render an entire genre of JRPGs....not RPGs. This is important, because the definition of RPGs = Combat has held for about three to four decades! You are changing the definition for the sake of Disco Elysium alone.

in DE case the game is kinda-rpgish at max.

It has light rpg elements at best (literally stats and dice rolls). Stats appear in both Adventure and VN games, so the only unique RPG element DE has going for it are dice rolls, and there are no real RPG applications for it, only a chance for bad ends, in the vein of VNs.

When you quash Disco Elysium like a nut, it bleeds several distinct elements...that do not result in a RPG.