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Wizardry & Disco Elysium: how are these games the same genre?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by rusty_shackleford, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    I actually played that one back in the day. I didn't have to "find" anything.

    So? There is a Starcraft RPG too.

    I doubt that the rules of this "Alchemist of Istanbul" forcibly prevent you from shooting somebody because you feel like it.

    Except that nowadays every fucking shooter or action adventure has it.

    Not easy to put in a category of RPG, indeed.
     
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  2. gurugeorge Learned

    gurugeorge
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    All the genres are somewhat arbitrary and fall out of some blend of a few elements,e.g. logical puzzle solving, simulation, story-telling (which includes choice/consequence), competition (combat), combined with what technical limitations will forbid and allow.

    Chess and similar board games have everything except story-telling, but their simulation element is very light, and limited by the ancient technology of bits of wood or whatever, which by default brings puzzle solving and competition to the fore. But if you were the scion of a rich lord in the olden days, you might be able to afford full wargaming sets and learn some of the intricacies of real war on the floor or on a giant table - there the simulation element would be a bit more emphasized.

    Adventure games are a blend of puzzle solving, simulation and story-telling.

    CRPGs are a blend of all the elements (with the puzzle solving being related to resource management and character building, etc.).

    There's also the possibility of "nesting" - e.g. beating the game, any game, is itself an element of competition at the meta level.

    What everybody wants, ultimately, is perfect simulation, because all these things fold back into simulation. Except not quite the perfect simulation, but rather, the perfect simulation in which it's easier to "win" in than in real life. Also the perfect simulation plus fantastical or science-fictional or superheroic elements, which heighten the emotion in the way GRR Martin talks about.

    The perfect simulation in which the difficulty slider is just a tad to the easier side than in real life - not God mode, but comprised of challenges that it's easier to overcome. There's a sweet spot there, where you find happiness by facing challenges that are JUST on the edge of what you're capable of, and beating them. A microcosm in which it's possible to be a winner, or to dream of being a winner. (And that isn't necessarily a pejorative basement-dweller reference, lots of real-life winners are also gamers - "beating" things is their metier, and they do it at work and at leisure.)

    But in pursuit of the perfect simulation, the relative limitations of technology have sort of sloughed off "genres" which have their own quirks, arising out of their limitations, which people grow to be fond of (perhaps because they grew up with them, or they just tickle their fancy in some way).
     
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  3. barghwata Savant

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    What? that wasn't my point at all, i only mentioned "Alchemist of istanbul" to point out that Daughter of serpents has an RPG character creation system, does Starcraft have a char gen system i didn't hear about?

    Yes... that's why i said it's a hybrid, not a full RPG.

    Meh, unlocking a weapon in call of duty after a killstreak isn't a character creation system, when you see this you don't think "Shooter" you think RPG

    [​IMG]

    And if you played enough adventure games you would realise that it's not easy to put in the adventure category either.
     
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  4. AdvancedHero Arbiter

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    This whole thread is triggering.
     
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  5. Grauken Incorrigible Mapmaker Patron

    Grauken
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    That's why we just have to casually mention it won RPG Codex of the Year award to see them fly into a fit of rage

    Works every time and is just funny to watch
     
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  6. mibbles codex grandma Patron

    mibbles
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    @ me when consensus is reached.
     
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  7. Grauken Incorrigible Mapmaker Patron

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    you're clearly expecting that nobody ever @ you, we are wise to your ways
     
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  8. mondblut Arcane

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    My point is that having a tabletop RPG tie-in product by no means ensures that the videogame is anywhere near a CRPG. As proven by countless shitty D&D-based action games, of all things.

    It was not a hybrid, it was adventure game through and through, with certain paths through it being locked or unlocked depending on whichever setup you picked at the start of the game.

    Or a strategy game. Or a sport sim. It's 2020, customizing the entity you control in a game got about as mainstream as customizing keybindings.

    That's for adventure games fans to have headaches over. Let them kick it out to flight sims for all I care, just don't bring it back to us :obviously:
     
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  9. mondblut Arcane

    mondblut
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    Genres are set by precedents. You combine X and Y and Z, get a hit, get clones, and thus a genre is born.

    What we want is a perfect simulation of playing D&D except without those pesky other people. Not a fucking holodeck.
     
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  10. gurugeorge Learned

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    Sure, and those combinations arise out of what's possible technologically - here, the possibility of interacting via pointing and clicking, there the possibility of a database that keeps track of inventory and statistics, there again, the possibility moving through a represented 2-d space, or a 3-d space, etc., etc. But they're all approximations towards simulation that fall on abstraction when simulation isn't possible.

    But what's happening in a P&P situation other than a shared adventure in a shared virtual holodeck in peoples' minds? I think the only sense in which you're right is that we probably don't want to be physically exercising ourselves moving our bodies in that way, we'd prefer to sit in chairs and experience it :)

    But I can see younger, fitter people going for more holodeck-proper experiences in the future. Imagine being able to LARP in virtual environments where your party members actually look like amazing specimens of elfkind and humanity, instead of studio-tanned bugmen and speccy bluehairs :)
     
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  11. mondblut Arcane

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    What does Tetris "simulate"?

    In a P&P situation straight men roll dice and calculate bonuses. Because it's fun.

    Shared virtual holodecks are for poofters.
     
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  12. gurugeorge Learned

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    Puzzles are an abstraction of problem solving - like arithmetic is in relation to sorting sheep. Tetris is kind of like an abstraction of optimal luggage packing with a twitch element. (It's particularly appealing to girls who like to keep things neat and tidy, at least my ex was like that - she couldn't do anything else for like 3 weeks, needed intravenous drip, etc.)

    Don't deny your inner nerd :)
     
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  13. Grauken Incorrigible Mapmaker Patron

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    mondblut doesn't have an inner nerd, its all knives on the inside
     
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  14. samuraigaiden Savant

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    Severance has all that and nobody in their right mind thinks it’s an RPG. It’s an action game with RPG elements, just as much as DE is an Adventure game with RPG elements.
     
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  15. Ol' Willy Magister

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    By Jove, at least someone still remembers what real fun is! Cheers, mate
     
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  16. V_K Arcane

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    ...which it nearly lost to a metroidvania.
     
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  17. Butter Arcane

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    Metroidvanias and roguelike card games are just as much RPGs as Disco Elysium is, haters.
     
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  18. Grauken Incorrigible Mapmaker Patron

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    If you know my taste you would realize I would enjoy that even more
     
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  19. Ashigara Literate

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    Tabletop RPGs may evolve from war games but they became basically in their aim a fantasy / sci-fi simulator for doing stuff in fictional geeky worlds - a simulator for nerds to live in the favorite settings.... So I don't think combat is necccecary honestly.... Doing shit in nerd settings through a wide variety of rules is neccecary.

    What is Disco Elysium like? Is it nerdy enough? Because the real decline for me would be if we started having pedestrian un imaginative worlds that are too much like our own, like a fucking medical soap opera RPG.
     
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  20. Pope Amole II Prestigious Gentleman Nerd Commando Game Studios Developer

    Pope Amole II
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    With years I've come to conclusion that any RPG fandom is a fucking cult and so all this "Is X an RPG?" is mostly a question of blind faith anyways. If you wish to believe that Disco is an RPG - it will be an RPG. For you, at the very least. Facts don't really matter here - if it were up to the facts, we'd see a different codexian top-70, for example.
     
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  21. ValeVelKal Arcane

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    There was the discussion earlier on, there are other RPG without combat (or where combat are like in DE - not a separate system) :

    - the Council
    - Eastshade
    - Golden Sky

    And then there are RPG where they put combat because people expected it but really it looks like an afterthought, in particular Ultima Adventure : Martian Dreams
     
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  22. gurugeorge Learned

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    I dunno, for a game to not have combat, the writing has to be REALLY interesting, and not cucked.

    Otherwise combat is just more fun, because it's intricate and exciting, something to get your teeth into.
     
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  23. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    thats a mystery solving visual novel mate, the fuck you talking about

    first person adventure game and a walking sim, if this is an RPG then Myst is one too

    Looks like a boardgame for children, it doesn't even use dice

    So yeah, no one was able to name a CRPG without combat yet because a true RPG is a combat simulation by definition
     
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  24. ValeVelKal Arcane

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    Do side quests, gain experience, develop your character, progress along the story.
    You know many mystery solving game // visual novels with side quests, choices & consequences and "looting" stuff (though equipment could be more developed) ?

    Same here. Eastshade has exploration, choices & consequences, equipment, side quests. It is basically Oblivion without guns.
     
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