Xenich's War for Rules and Realism in D&D

[Xenich]

Of course the existance of magic shakes things a bit. But even magic is still subject to physics when it creates physical phenomena. Just look at how AD&D Fireball spell works for example.

Players knowledgeable about physics could even do more with spells.

Yes. I do not disagree with this, but "realism" is a heavy statement in the land of fairies and dragons and magic.

Not really..

Realism:
"interest in or concern for the actual or real, as distinguished from the abstract, speculative, etc."

That is, when one is considering the realism of AD&D, they are concerned with how such a world could be considered "actual" or "real" in its function, explanation, and consistency over just dismissing such with "its all magic!" /waves hands dramatically

This is the difference between my time of players and those now. You see, we were actually interested in more than just play acting. We were interested in an actual. GAME, not just random entertainment.

This is why our games of the past (computer, PnP, etc...) are about mechanics, systems, and consistency in realism of its existence within that world and why games today are more concerned about politics and letting you have sex with animals.

 

[Delterius]

2) Mage casts bolt, but because of the principals of physics, how electricity reacts in water... the entire party is electrocuted as the spell spreads out like a ball from its origin.

But is it really electricity? It could be magic quasi lightning from another plane of existance instead. We need to investigate further. Is this a Conjuration or an Evocation spell? Perhaps even a shadow-Illusion spell mimicking reality?

its better to say internal consistency instead of realism

 

[Excidium II]

Of course the existance of magic shakes things a bit. But even magic is still subject to physics when it creates physical phenomena. Just look at how AD&D Fireball spell works for example.

Players knowledgeable about physics could even do more with spells.

Yes. I do not disagree with this, but "realism" is a heavy statement in the land of fairies and dragons and magic.

People just give the word a wrong meaning. Xenich explained it.

Also AD&D turns are 1 minute long.

Sure, though I didn't know the topic as only on 2.x.

Well, it's the breakpoint of how D&D was originally envisioned by its creators, 2nd Ed. has some differences but it's still mostly a rules revision and vastly improved editing work. Future iterations were new games with familiar terminology and trademarked elements.

 

[Xenich]

2) Mage casts bolt, but because of the principals of physics, how electricity reacts in water... the entire party is electrocuted as the spell spreads out like a ball from its origin.

But is it really electricity? It could be magic quasi lightning from another plane of existance instead. We need to investigate further. Is this a Conjuration or an Evocation spell? Perhaps even a shadow-Illusion spell mimicking reality?

its better to say internal consistency instead of realism

Good questions. As a practice you could grab lets say a early edition DM guide and see if you can find some answers to such (there may be some examples, or there may be some information that would lead you to an answer). Ultimately, the DM has to decide about it as what he decides then will then establish the consistency throughout the world and will most definitely come up in later play.If the GM uses "its just magic" all the time to excuse these problems, well... the game will get stupid really fast.

Realism is the correct word to use though.

 

[Delterius]

Realism is the correct word to use though.

Internal consistency is better for a number of reasons. Its in keeping with Tolkien's tradition of the Secondary World, so it includes not only parallels of physics between our reality and our creation but also what special rules we create for that world. As a bonus it keeps people from trolling you for three pages about horse spiders.

 

[Prime Junta]

2) Mage casts bolt, but because of the principals of physics, how electricity reacts in water... the entire party is electrocuted as the spell spreads out like a ball from its origin.

Except that's not what would happen because it's not how electricity works. It wouldn't "spread out like a ball" in any circumstances. That doesn't make sense for electricity at all, which is about current flowing from the anode to the cathode.

Let's suppose a lightning bolt spell works a bit like a taser, by creating two conductive channels from the the anode to the target, and back to the cathode. Let's say the anode is at the caster's left hand, and the cathode at the right one. When he casts the spell, he magically creates a massive potential difference between his left and right hands and ionizes the air from the left hand to one point on the target, and the right hand to another point on the target. This closes the circuit, and the current flows from the left hand, through the ionized channel, to the target's body, through the target's body, out the other ionized channel, and to the caster's right hand, causing burn damage and possible electrocution to the victim.

Now, if you cast this under water, assuming it's not pure water which is an insulator, the electricity would simply flow directly from the caster's left to the right hand, harmlessly and with no pyrotechnics.

 

[Excidium II]

Internal consistency is important, but so is realism. RPGs are games and it makes life easier for everyone to be able to draw from their understanding of the world.

 

[Delterius]

95% of spells should end in Paradox anyway.

 

[Excidium II]

95% of spells should end in Paradox anyway.

This reminds me of this anedocte I read once about a physicist playing MtA that used his knowldedge to come up with really cool magicks.

 

[Xenich]

2) Mage casts bolt, but because of the principals of physics, how electricity reacts in water... the entire party is electrocuted as the spell spreads out like a ball from its origin.

Except that's not what would happen because it's not how electricity works. It wouldn't "spread out like a ball" in any circumstances. That doesn't make sense for electricity at all, which is about current flowing from the anode to the cathode.

Let's suppose a lightning bolt spell works a bit like a taser, by creating two conductive channels from the the anode to the target, and back to the cathode. Let's say the anode is at the caster's left hand, and the cathode at the right one. When he casts the spell, he magically creates a massive potential difference between his left and right hands and ionizes the air from the left hand to one point on the target, and the right hand to another point on the target. This closes the circuit, and the current flows from the left hand, through the ionized channel, to the target's body, through the target's body, out the other ionized channel, and to the caster's right hand, causing burn damage and possible electrocution to the victim.

Now, if you cast this under water, assuming it's not pure water which is an insulator, the electricity would simply flow directly from the caster's left to the right hand, harmlessly and with no pyrotechnics.

So... what you are saying is that the spell does nothing and the water beast continues to advance.

Do you see the point now though? This is the kind of debate in AD&D that I enjoyed. I understand that you can take it too far and get bogged down in technical aspects (which by the way Gygax admitted, which is why he advocated for balance), but these aspects of world evaluation are important for game play. Not to mention, they are a hell of a lot of fun to argue in a gaming sessions and as I said, they bring about thinking about character play and how your character truly interacts within the game world. You may not have meant to, but you just proved my point.

 

[Xenich]

Internal consistency is important, but so is realism. RPGs are games and it makes life easier for everyone to be able to draw from their understanding of the world.

Yeah, if you throw out our worlds rules entirely and favor a completely different reality, you run into the issue of having your players be required to read a book (or several) on the physics of the game world to even attempt to play it. It is much easier to take our own world and find a way to get it to work reasonably in the fantasy world.

 

[Prime Junta]

So... what you are saying is that the spell does nothing and the water beast continues to advance.

Yes?

(FWIW it's funny you brought this up as I had to rule on this once, and this is how I ruled it.)

Do you see the point now though? This is the kind of debate in AD&D that I enjoyed. I understand that you can take it too far and get bogged down in technical aspects (which by the way Gygax admitted, which is why he advocated for balance), but these aspects of world evaluation are important for game play. Not to mention, they are a hell of a lot of fun to argue in a gaming sessions and as I said, they bring about thinking about character play and how your character truly interacts within the game world. You may not have meant to, but you just proved my point.

Except that you were arguing that AD&D's DMG already had 'realistic' rules. It doesn't. It couldn't recognize realism if it bit it on the ass. It leaves all those kinds of rulings up to individual DM's.

There are systems out there that have at least a passing acquaintanceship with realism. AD&D ain't one of them.

 

[Immortal]

You think those debates are fun? I've had campaigns killed by ambiguous DM rulings.

 

[Lhynn]

Does it happen that often? A bit of handwaving for the sake of abstraction isn't a sacrife of realism, but of simulation.

There are degrees of realism. Sure, the game is predicated on simulationism, but xenbitch here is pretending that the game only works if there are intellectual genious at the table making rules up based on their own perception of reality is fucking bonkers.
Any DM can do this just fine with a bit of common sense.

Actually, it is me refusing to answer to your other two questions which are obviously ignorant of the history of the game. I said AD&D, I mentioned first edition DM manual and even hinted at the terminal velocity part. You acted like none of this existed which means you were likely looking at some recent edition GM guide built for the intellectually lazy and furies. So, being that you are just a kid and WAY out of your league this topic, I mocked you and dismissed you like the ignorant kid you are.

I acted as if none of that matters actually. And proceeded to quote some rules that go directly against any kind of realism, and they do exist in all editions, starting with HP.

Realism:
"interest in or concern for the actual or real, as distinguished from the abstract, speculative, etc."

In a game where p. much everything is abstracted and up for interpretation.

That is, when one is considering the realism of AD&D, they are concerned with how such a world could be considered "actual" or "real" in its function, explanation, and consistency over just dismissing such with "its all magic!" /waves hands dramatically

But what does a complete simulation add to the game that a partial and functional one doesnt?

This is the difference between my time of players and those now. You see, we were actually interested in more than just play acting. We were interested in an actual. GAME, not just random entertainment.

Now you lost me, you were interested in the narrative value of the things you did? and the value of creativity and consequences of your actions outside of the game rules? because i agree with that.

This is why our games of the past (computer, PnP, etc...) are about mechanics, systems, and consistency in realism of its existence within that world and why games today are more concerned about politics and letting you have sex with animals.

Yes, wizardry games were concerned with realism and simulationism, so was fallout, and im guessing Might and Magic games were concerned with that as well. Neoscavenger, a game of 2013 if i remember correctly, on the other hand, a game concerned with politics and sex with animals.
Sides, why are you coupling gamey mechanics with realism, your leap in logic is flawed as fuck.

 

[Xenich]

Except that you were arguing that AD&D's DMG already had 'realistic' rules. It doesn't. It couldn't recognize realism if it bit it on the ass. It leaves all those kinds of rulings up to individual DM's.

There are systems out there that have at least a passing acquaintanceship with realism. AD&D ain't one of them.

Attempting to achieve such and actually achieving such does not change the fact of its goals and the point I was making. It doesn't matter that they do a shitty job trying to establish basic principals of physics within the game world, it matters that that they try to (and the DM guide 1st edition clearly shows that). The arguments here are that it doesn't matter, that it is just "magic" and they argue the typical Arneson argument that rules are irrelevant, blah blah, its all about fun... etc....

 

[Xenich]

Does it happen that often? A bit of handwaving for the sake of abstraction isn't a sacrife of realism, but of simulation.

There are degrees of realism. Sure, the game is predicated on simulationism, but xenbitch here is pretending that the game only works if there are intellectual genious at the table making rules up based on their own perception of reality is fucking bonkers.
Any DM can do this just fine with a bit of common sense..

Argument of extremes! Seriously kid, give it up.

 

[Lhynn]

You were the one that brough it to the extreme, not i. All you need is imagination and a bit of common sense to play the game.

 

[Xenich]

You think those debates are fun? I've had campaigns killed by ambiguous DM rulings.

Well, the people I played with were all physics, computer science, engineering majors, etc... it was a typical night for us. Not sure why it would kill a campaign though. Only time I ever saw a campaign trashed was by an English major who was crying about a major betrayal by one of players disrupting the hand job of a story they were writing about the campaign. Apparently, it ruined their "rainbows and unicorns" expectation of the direction of the campaign. The only thing the mechanics arguments led to was a bunch of drunk nerds pulling out text books and arguing their points.

 

[Immortal]

You think those debates are fun? I've had campaigns killed by ambiguous DM rulings.

Well, the people I played with were all physics, computer science, engineering majors, etc..

It's so weird.. My major was Computer Engineering.. but I have yet to meet this demographic of boring ass people who wanna debate and argue pseudo-intellectual crap all the time.
Usually we just grab a couple beers and have a good time.

Fuck me right?

 

[Xenich]

You were the one that brough it to the extreme, not i. All you need is imagination and a bit of common sense to play the game.

I clearly pointed out the importance of realism in PnP and how today's generations think nothing of those things and promote the camp Arneson style of thinking (which by the way is also present in the rest of gaming today). You spoke like your minuscule time of being a D&D player was somehow an argument of authority and were clearly shown to be just a kid who has no fucking clue (seriously, you started playing after TSR went out of business... and you think you are special? You know those first edition manuals, modules and additions? I bought them off the fucking store front brand new /boggle).

So, after that you had to result to fallacies to try and frame me in a position of being an extremeist and unreasonable all the while it was you who were claiming I was stupid for my comments about realism.

 

[Xenich]

You think those debates are fun? I've had campaigns killed by ambiguous DM rulings.

Well, the people I played with were all physics, computer science, engineering majors, etc..

It's so weird.. My major was Computer Engineering.. but I have yet to meet this demographic of boring ass people who wanna debate and argue pseudo-intellectual crap all the time.
Usually we just grab a couple beers and have a good time.

Fuck me right?

The point is... you are not likely to get technical arguments out your English lit and drama majors. In my experience, they were always the ones bitching about being held to some internal consistency in the game world. They were always arguing the need to relax the rules so they could role play, you know... the same people who think computer games should be all about the story and dumbed down play. /shrug.

 

[Lhynn]

I clearly pointed out the importance of realism in PnP and how today's generations think nothing of those things and promote the camp Arneson style of thinking (which by the way is also present in the rest of gaming today). You spoke like your minuscule time of being a D&D player was somehow an argument of authority and were clearly shown to be just a kid who has no fucking clue (seriously, you started playing after TSR went out of business... and you think you are special? You know those first edition manuals, modules and additions? I bought them off the fucking store front brand new /boggle).

Oh shut up you pedantic imbecile, 15 years of DM experience is plenty of time to get acquainted with the system and the inner workings of DnD. actually more like a day and a couple sessions would be enough.
I know the manuals, never read modules, they are for DMs desperate for ideas and with a serious lack of imagination. All youve proven is that you are so full of shit you may actually explode if we keep this exchange.

So, after that you had to result to fallacies to try and frame me in a position of being an extremeist and unreasonable all the while it was you who were claiming I was stupid for my comments about realism.

You are an extremist and unreasonable you mayor cuck, stating that 15 years of playing a game is not enough to understand how it works, only because it seems to have taken you longer is one of the most unreasonable things ive read, and its par for the course for any of your daily shitposting.
Also implying that campaings DMed by engineers and physics is somehow needed or relevant in any way. Holy fucking shit, you are fucking insane.

 

[Xenich]

Oh shut up you pedantic imbecile, 15 years of DM experience is plenty of time to get acquainted with the system and the inner workings of DnD.

And yet your dumb ass acted like there was no such things in the AD&D books "What.. I don't see any of that stuff...".

You are a stupid kid who thinks he knows his head from his ass, but can't ever figure out the difference because your head is up your ass.

Run along, I hear that historical documentary sesame street is coming on.

 

[Jaesun]

This thread is going places...

 

[Lhynn]

And yet your dumb ass acted like there was no such things in the AD&D books "What.. I don't see any of that stuff...".

I dont see a full simulation anywhere in the rulebook, just a few bits of advice or optional rules here and there. You cannot say AD&D is realistic based on that.

Run along, I hear that historical documentary sesame street is coming on.

Whats that?

This thread is going places...

Very slow afternoon at work.